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Thread: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

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    Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    In football you can potentially get "lucky" because you play one game for each round of the playoffs. In Golf you can get "lucky" on a single hole and get a good bounce. However, in baseball, to attribute the continued success of a team to "luck" is poor use of the English language and sad bitterness.

    To continue to call the Cardinals team "lucky" is absurd and makes no sense. How can luck compel the Cardinals to 4 straight playoff series victories (and counting)? Luck would be an opposing pitcher suddenly getting swine flu the morning of his start, or fluke plays like Hamilton's drop this year or a pivotal ball being stuck in the ivy at Wrigley.

    You can call the Cardinals "timely" or "opportunists" but I fail to see how this team is "lucky" more than any other team. It sucks seeing a team you dislike advancing, but this whole "luck" thing has been overboard for a while now.

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    Re: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    Sorry, but this is just incorrect. Baseball is played over 162 game schedule, unlike the other examples you gave, so it is built for the long term.

    Four games or even 15 games in baseball is like one game in most other sports. Going on a good 15 game run is often a matter of luck in baseball, that's why the playoffs are always a crap shoot.

    The Cards got lucky last season because the Braves collapsed, and the Phillies best player was injured. They played well in the NLCS, but got lucky in the World Series that the Rangers played horribly.

    The Cards got lucky this season because the rules were changed that let them into the playoffs despite a mediocre season overall and finishing 9 games out of first. They got lucky with a blown call against the Braves and were lucky that the Nat's shut down Strasberg.

    The Cards have played well, so it's not all luck, but more luck than usual was required for them to win the World Series last year, and for their advancement so far this season.

    It's an undeniable fact. The Cards have been unbelievabley lucky these last two years and their level of play normally would not have warrented them to even make the playoffs either year.

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    Re: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    Quote Originally Posted by Redmore123 View Post
    In football you can potentially get "lucky" because you play one game for each round of the playoffs. In Golf you can get "lucky" on a single hole and get a good bounce. However, in baseball, to attribute the continued success of a team to "luck" is poor use of the English language and sad bitterness.

    To continue to call the Cardinals team "lucky" is absurd and makes no sense. How can luck compel the Cardinals to 4 straight playoff series victories (and counting)? Luck would be an opposing pitcher suddenly getting swine flu the morning of his start, or fluke plays like Hamilton's drop this year or a pivotal ball being stuck in the ivy at Wrigley.

    You can call the Cardinals "timely" or "opportunists" but I fail to see how this team is "lucky" more than any other team. It sucks seeing a team you dislike advancing, but this whole "luck" thing has been overboard for a while now.
    Calling it anything BUT luck is asinine.

    Take this year as an example. Following the regular wild card standards the Cardinals shouldn't even BE in the playoffs this year. They had a so-so regular season, and were 6 games overall behind the Braves. Of course, the year they expand the 2nd wildcard spot, is the same year that the Cardinals finish with a record good enough for second place.

    They have alot of "momentum" in terms of elimination games. They also have experience, and the known how to keep there cool and composure. I mean, for gods sake my man, how can you NOT call it luck when a career .236 minor league batter scores the go ahead runs in the bottom of the 9th against the Nats.

    Or look at Daniel Descaloes tying hit. Just a few mores inches to the left and it would been a play that Desmond could've either turned for two, or prevented the tying run from scoring.

    They are a talented team, no one is denying the fact.

    But personally, I attribute there achievements to this;

    1. Having Veterans that can lead the way during tough times (like a Game 5)
    2. There hitting coach Mr. McGuire (there plate approach is just brilliant imo)
    3. Just pure confidence, and believing that there never out till there out.
    4. And, yes, LUCK.

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    Re: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    Baseball has more luck in it than any major sport by tenfold, a guy throws a round ball another guy hits it with a round bat and then anything can happen. The Cardinals have more wacky things happen for them then any other team.

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    Re: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    Quote Originally Posted by JayStubbs View Post
    It's an undeniable fact. The Cards have been unbelievabley lucky these last two years and their level of play normally would not have warrented them to even make the playoffs either year.
    Don't forget the year the won the division with 83 wins despite 5 other teams being in it, and then went on to win the World Series after the Tigers threw about 7 bunts away and 13-26 with a 5.12 career ERA Anthony Reyes beat Verlander with a 4 hitter.

    I will never get over how a division with 6 teams in it had a winner with just 83 wins, that's virtually impossible. 12 of the other 24 MLB teams had more wins than the best of those 6 teams had. If the Cards played in the AL central rather than NL that season they would been 7 games behind a 3rd place White Sox team who won 90 games. The AL had 8 teams with a better record by 3 games or better and only 4 got in that year.

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    Re: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    Quote Originally Posted by JayStubbs View Post
    Sorry, but this is just incorrect. Baseball is played over 162 game schedule, unlike the other examples you gave, so it is built for the long term.

    1. Four games or even 15 games in baseball is like one game in most other sports. Going on a good 15 game run is often a matter of luck in baseball, that's why the playoffs are always a crap shoot.

    2. The Cards got lucky last season because the Braves collapsed, and the Phillies best player was injured. They played well in the NLCS, but got lucky in the World Series that the Rangers played horribly.

    3. The Cards got lucky this season because the rules were changed that let them into the playoffs despite a mediocre season overall and finishing 9 games out of first. They got lucky with a blown call against the Braves and were lucky that the Nat's shut down Strasberg.

    4. The Cards have played well, so it's not all luck, but more luck than usual was required for them to win the World Series last year, and for their advancement so far this season.

    5. It's an undeniable fact. The Cards have been unbelievabley lucky these last two years and their level of play normally would not have warrented them to even make the playoffs either year.
    (I numbered your post to make it easier to tear it down)

    1. 4 games or 15 games are like 1 game in most other sports? First of all which one is it? 4 or 15 because those two numbers are not close. Secondly going on a good 15 game run is luck? No, because 15 games with 9 innings takes a tremendous amount of time. It's momentum, but going on a 15 game run is not "luck" by any means. I'm going to chalk this one up to you being drunk because there was not a coherent statement in there.

    2. True the Braves collapse aided them, but by them going on a tear they put pressure on the Braves and they couldnt handle it. The Phillies best player was injured on the last play of the series when it didnt matter, you can't just change history to make an bogus argument. Rangers played horribly? They played pretty damn well in 4.5 of those games, and in most of the games hit and pitched situationally pretty well.

    3. Jesus kid, the rule change was there all year, it didn't suddenly in the last week of the season. So if a home run is reversed due to the new instant replay on HR calls is that also "lucky" since it wouldnt have been reversed before the rule was made? And lucky because Strasburg was shut down? Did the Reds get "lucky" that Lincecum is injured and had an off year? Nats lucky Garcia got injured? No, in baseball things happen, Cardinals are missing their starting 1B and SS and third starter for that series along with other teams missing guys. Are we supposed to go cry foul everytime a team doesn't field its opening day roster? The call was or was not mistaken versus the Braves, the thing is calls are blown all game every game and the Braves lost by 3 runs, that call didnt end the inning and they still had a shot afterwards.

    4. Right because when a team you dont like does well it's only "luck". Well it was unlucky for the Cardinals to lose Berkman, Furcal, and Carpenter(for most of the year) but that team and many other teams don't blame the injuries for not winning the division or any other shortcoming. I dont understand this culture of making excuses, blaming the next guy, and self loathing I see here all the time. I know its a fan forum, but you can't just disconnect yourself from reality.

    5. Yes the Cardinals were the last one in, but guess what, it doesnt matter. The Reds could have won 3 games and made the NLCS. The Cardinals were banged up both in 2011 and 2012, its not that they made the playoffs for simply finishing over .500. Their lineup continues to be potent and their pitching kicks in when it matters.The Nats could have won 3 games and made the NLCS. The Cardinals hit better when it mattered and shut down the Nats pitching wise when they had to. The Reds have a tremendous young core team, but they didnt execute. Their stats and records dont win games. I'm pretty sure if you check the record books there will be no asterisk next to STL from last year, there will be wins and losses because thats what matters in baseball. Keep calling it "luck" and see if that really makes you feel better. Theres no reason to live bitter and disillusioned as a baseball fan, the game moves way to slow to do so. Call a spade a spade and look forward to a young core coming back.



    And hometown, you've got to get a grip man. Does that infield fly rule score 4 runs for the Braves when you have the NL saves leader waiting? If you really think STL has more luck than an average MLB team youre doing it wrong.

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    Re: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    The Braves playing 10-20 the final 30 games last year after going 79-53 before and missing on the last day is luck, aiding in that luck the Phillies played starters into extra of game 162 and got them beat up for the Cards series with half their team getting surgeries right after the series.

    And it doesn't end there, those guys getting hurt lead to the Phillies not having Utley and Howard for first 2/3 of year and just missing catching the Cards once they got healthy going 44-30 the final 74 games after a terrible 37-51 start.

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    Re: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    Quote Originally Posted by Redmore123 View Post
    And hometown, you've got to get a grip man. Does that infield fly rule score 4 runs for the Braves when you have the NL saves leader waiting? If you really think STL has more luck than an average MLB team youre doing it wrong.
    The Cards got lucky with the leaders in fewest errors making 3 errors even before that late infield fly call. But lets recap the play..

    If they call it down its bases loaded and 1 out, McCann walked so it would been 6-4 even, Then the pressure is all on the Cards, we have no idea what would happen next. With one out rather than two the Braves could have tried for a suicide squeeze play with Bourn up and a amped up closer in.

    If he bunts it could have made it 6-5 or Motte could have thrown it away, bur either way the Braves would have got a second shot to get the big hit. Even if its 6-4 and Bourn and Prado make outs like the did. It would have set Jones and Freeman up with 2nd and 3rd and no outs down 2 in the 9th if everything played the same, If Uggla grounds out its 6-5 with one out and runner on 3rd for Ross who already had 3 hits.

    Any Cards fan who thinks they aren't lucky exposes themselves as fools, if you go on any teams board who gets high traffic and you will see people talking about the Cards luck especially teams in the division who see it more.

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    Re: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    Quote Originally Posted by HometownHero View Post
    The Cards got lucky with the leaders in fewest errors making 3 errors even before that late infield fly call. But lets recap the play..

    If they call it down its bases loaded and 1 out, McCann walked so it would been 6-4 even, Then the pressure is all on the Cards, we have no idea what would happen next. With one out rather than two the Braves could have tried for a suicide squeeze play with Bourn up and a amped up closer in.

    If he bunts it could have made it 6-5 or Motte could have thrown it away, bur either way the Braves would have got a second shot to get the big hit. Even if its 6-4 and Bourn and Prado make outs like the did. It would have set Jones and Freeman up with 2nd and 3rd and no outs down 2 in the 9th if everything played the same, If Uggla grounds out its 6-5 with one out and runner on 3rd for Ross who already had 3 hits.

    Any Cards fan who thinks they aren't lucky exposes themselves as fools, if you go on any teams board who gets high traffic and you will see people talking about the Cards luck especially teams in the division who see it more.
    Dude, please give it up. All you're doing is feeding the fire of these trolls. I hate the Cards just as much as you, but to say that the ONLY reason they are where they are at is due to luck, to me that is just plain crazy and a way of putting your anger off the Reds and towards them. Give it up, once the playoffs are over the trolls will leave man!!!

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    Re: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    Wow, I hope I never become a fan of a team that is still playing in the playoffs, yet I still have to go to other teams sites and troll. I would hope I would be too excited to still watch my team, focusing on them and not be worried about what any other teams fans are thinking.
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    Re: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    Quote Originally Posted by bounty37h View Post
    Wow, I hope I never become a fan of a team that is still playing in the playoffs, yet I still have to go to other teams sites and troll. I would hope I would be too excited to still watch my team, focusing on them and not be worried about what any other teams fans are thinking.

    Trolling?
    If I were trolling I'd come in here and make fun of the Reds and hail how the Cardinals are reigning champs blah blah.
    I've been cruising through sites of other playoff teams because generally fans pick up on smaller things then you will find out just watching TV and reading national articles. This forum isn't as bad as the nats forum, and outside of people like hometown hero most guys are pretty rational. AKA they realize that a baseball game is 9 innings and around 3 hours, and a series is that times seven, to attribute continued success purely to luck shows how disillusioned some fans can be.

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    Re: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    Quote Originally Posted by Redmore123 View Post
    (I numbered your post to make it easier to tear it down)

    1. 4 games or 15 games are like 1 game in most other sports? First of all which one is it? 4 or 15 because those two numbers are not close. Secondly going on a good 15 game run is luck? No, because 15 games with 9 innings takes a tremendous amount of time. It's momentum, but going on a 15 game run is not "luck" by any means. I'm going to chalk this one up to you being drunk because there was not a coherent statement in there.

    2. True the Braves collapse aided them, but by them going on a tear they put pressure on the Braves and they couldnt handle it. The Phillies best player was injured on the last play of the series when it didnt matter, you can't just change history to make an bogus argument. Rangers played horribly? They played pretty damn well in 4.5 of those games, and in most of the games hit and pitched situationally pretty well.

    3. Jesus kid, the rule change was there all year, it didn't suddenly in the last week of the season. So if a home run is reversed due to the new instant replay on HR calls is that also "lucky" since it wouldnt have been reversed before the rule was made? And lucky because Strasburg was shut down? Did the Reds get "lucky" that Lincecum is injured and had an off year? Nats lucky Garcia got injured? No, in baseball things happen, Cardinals are missing their starting 1B and SS and third starter for that series along with other teams missing guys. Are we supposed to go cry foul everytime a team doesn't field its opening day roster? The call was or was not mistaken versus the Braves, the thing is calls are blown all game every game and the Braves lost by 3 runs, that call didnt end the inning and they still had a shot afterwards.

    4. Right because when a team you dont like does well it's only "luck". Well it was unlucky for the Cardinals to lose Berkman, Furcal, and Carpenter(for most of the year) but that team and many other teams don't blame the injuries for not winning the division or any other shortcoming. I dont understand this culture of making excuses, blaming the next guy, and self loathing I see here all the time. I know its a fan forum, but you can't just disconnect yourself from reality.

    5. Yes the Cardinals were the last one in, but guess what, it doesnt matter. The Reds could have won 3 games and made the NLCS. The Cardinals were banged up both in 2011 and 2012, its not that they made the playoffs for simply finishing over .500. Their lineup continues to be potent and their pitching kicks in when it matters.The Nats could have won 3 games and made the NLCS. The Cardinals hit better when it mattered and shut down the Nats pitching wise when they had to. The Reds have a tremendous young core team, but they didnt execute. Their stats and records dont win games. I'm pretty sure if you check the record books there will be no asterisk next to STL from last year, there will be wins and losses because thats what matters in baseball. Keep calling it "luck" and see if that really makes you feel better. Theres no reason to live bitter and disillusioned as a baseball fan, the game moves way to slow to do so. Call a spade a spade and look forward to a young core coming back.



    And hometown, you've got to get a grip man. Does that infield fly rule score 4 runs for the Braves when you have the NL saves leader waiting? If you really think STL has more luck than an average MLB team youre doing it wrong.
    I am assuming that you are high on meth, (being from the meth Capitol of the world) because none of this makes any sense. You clearly have no conception of what "luck" is, or what the word means.

    I have plenty of Cardinal fan friends who agree with me that the Cards have been extremely lucky. If you can't admit that the Cards have been luckier than any other team these last two years, or even that luck had something to do with their success, you must either be high on meth or a troll, or both.

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    Re: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    Quote Originally Posted by JayStubbs View Post
    I am assuming that you are high on meth, (being from the meth Capitol of the world) because none of this makes any sense. You clearly have no conception of what "luck" is, or what the word means.

    I have plenty of Cardinal fan friends who agree with me that the Cards have been extremely lucky. If you can't admit that the Cards have been luckier than any other team these last two years, or even that luck had something to do with their success, you must either be high on meth or a troll, or both.
    Meth capitol? Good one especially because Cincinnati has no problems whatsoever along with the state of Ohio (see: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99038). But that is besides the point, because everyone knows in sports when you lose and can't make a good argument you just insult the city.

    Will you explain this "luck" to me that makes the Cardinals undeserving. Did they not win 3 games versus NL #1 teams the past two years, beat the second best NL team last year and beat the best AL team last year? (the answer is yes). This year the rule was changed, sure but rules change year to year. But the team also lost Berkman, Furcal, and starting pitchers Garcia, Westbrook, and Carpenter were all out at least one month each. How come you forget and don't note the "unluckiness" of the team to lose such pivotal pieces of their team? The reason is because the truth hurts. It sucks to see a rival thriving when it matters, but you making excuses for a team executing when it counts doesnt make the team lose.

    Like I said, you can call it timely or opportunist, but the team hits and pitches for 9 innings over 5 and 7 game series. You can curse the resolve or clutchness of the team, but to say prolonged runs in baseball is purely luck shows you do not really have a grasp of what baseball really is. I'm assuming you never played the sport nor played any competitive sport at a high level if you think a professional team is lucky to win this many post season games against the top competition.

    Instead of making up excuses, why don't you focus on how Walt Jocketty changed the culture of baseball in Cincinnati this millenium and brought in pieces to make them perennial contenders? If the Reds were to be more timely, I'm sure you wouldnt chalk it up to them purely being "lucky" rather you'd realize it takes the talent physically and mentally of Votto, Phillips, Bruce, Ludwick, Latos, Cueto, Chapman etc to continue to win series after series against teams with better records.

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    Re: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    Quote Originally Posted by Redmore123 View Post
    Meth capitol? Good one especially because Cincinnati has no problems whatsoever along with the state of Ohio (see: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99038). But that is besides the point, because everyone knows in sports when you lose and can't make a good argument you just insult the city.

    Will you explain this "luck" to me that makes the Cardinals undeserving. Did they not win 3 games versus NL #1 teams the past two years, beat the second best NL team last year and beat the best AL team last year? (the answer is yes). This year the rule was changed, sure but rules change year to year. But the team also lost Berkman, Furcal, and starting pitchers Garcia, Westbrook, and Carpenter were all out at least one month each. How come you forget and don't note the "unluckiness" of the team to lose such pivotal pieces of their team? The reason is because the truth hurts. It sucks to see a rival thriving when it matters, but you making excuses for a team executing when it counts doesnt make the team lose.

    Like I said, you can call it timely or opportunist, but the team hits and pitches for 9 innings over 5 and 7 game series. You can curse the resolve or clutchness of the team, but to say prolonged runs in baseball is purely luck shows you do not really have a grasp of what baseball really is. I'm assuming you never played the sport nor played any competitive sport at a high level if you think a professional team is lucky to win this many post season games against the top competition.

    Instead of making up excuses, why don't you focus on how Walt Jocketty changed the culture of baseball in Cincinnati this millenium and brought in pieces to make them perennial contenders? If the Reds were to be more timely, I'm sure you wouldnt chalk it up to them purely being "lucky" rather you'd realize it takes the talent physically and mentally of Votto, Phillips, Bruce, Ludwick, Latos, Cueto, Chapman etc to continue to win series after series against teams with better records.
    First, I played college ball, I understand the game as well as anyone.

    I'll type this next part real slow so you can understand it.

    All teams, even the lowly Astros, can go on hot streaks. They went on streaks of 7-2, 8-4 and finished the season going 5-2. Outstanding teams go on losing streaks. Going on these streaks while in the playoffs is mostly due to luck, which is why the playoffs are such a crap shoot. You can have inferior teams beat superior teams on a regular basis, because of luck, because one team is having a hot streak, or the other team is having a cold streak.

    The Cardinals lucked into the playoffs these last two years. Sure, their play had something to do with it, but it is extremely rare for a contending team to go 10-20 down the stretch. That is luck. Without that, the Cards don't make the playoffs last year. Granted the Cards also played well down the stretch, but most years, they don't make it. That's luck.

    This year they got lucky the rules changed. Yes, they took advantage of it, but it doesn't mean that they weren't also lucky. Any other year, they don't make the playoffs. That's luck.

    Why can't you admit that the Cardinals got lucky these last two years. It's obvious to everyone but you.

    And btw Missouri isn't just the meth capital, it's also the Puppy Mill capital as well. You much be so proud of your state

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    Re: Just a quick reminder here re: baseball

    Im a reds fan but its pretty pathetic by other fans to whine about the cards being lucky.

    Who cares how many playoff teams were eligible last year it has nothing to do with this year.

    Who cares if there were x amount of teams in the AL w/ better records. It doesnt matter.

    Who cares if the cards won a WS w/ 83 wins. It doesnt matter.

    Who cares if the Braves lost a huge lead last year. It doesnt matter.

    It happens, every team at some point will benefit from another teams player being injured, or weak division, or some other form of variance.

    The reds were lucky to face the weakest part of their schedule and have Frazier, Ludwick, the pitching play out of their mind when Votto went down. The reds were lucky to win gm 1 w/ an injured Cueto.


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