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Thread: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

  1. #31
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by medford View Post
    That was my point, someone said there would be snickering all over the league, when in reality over half of MLB would be happy to have the Reds track record over Dusty's tenure.
    But they can't because they don't have the Reds players.

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  3. #32
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    If you think Dusty Baker is the reason the Reds won 97 games you aren't paying attention.

    If you think the only criteria for judging a manager is the win total, why didn't they fire him after last year's collapse from a playoff team to a losing record? Same manager managing the same way. Proof positive that Dusty Baker isn't a great manager.
    Lineup construction is also not the only criteria. For example:

    #1 lineup OBP

    TB - .315, 21st in baseball
    Toronto - .294, 26th in baseball

    #2 lineup OBP

    TB - .304, 26th in baseball
    Toronto - .319, 15th in baseball

    Just looking at the teams of the 2 candidates you mentioned.

  4. #33
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by medford View Post
    That was my point, someone said there would be snickering all over the league, when in reality over half of MLB would be happy to have the Reds track record over Dusty's tenure.
    But I thought Snickers satisfied?????
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  5. #34
    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    That's a good question. Dave Martinez and John Farrell would be my two top choices. Martinez is waiting for the perfect opportunity to come along (Reds would likely qualify) and Farrell is the Blue Jays' manager whom other teams are chasing right now.

    It shouldn't be that hard to upgrade the Reds at manager. Dusty makes a lot of big mistakes that have cost the team some wins, especially with regard to the offense.

    Dusty might be a good clubhouse manager, but from what I have seen and heard he spends most of his time in his office and really doesn't interact all that much with the players. He is a hands-off manager who let's the players do their thing without a lot of in-your-face college football-style coaching. I think most MLB managers are like that, which is fine. Dusty's handling of the players off the field is his strong suit.

    It is the in-game strategy and lineup construction that proves to a lot of people that Dusty simply doesn't know what he is doing as a modern manager. Something as ultra-basic as his batting order shows that he hasn't been paying attention to statistical developments that have become proven facts in the information age and are now fundamental concepts of successful managing.

    Dusty is the same guy that led the Reds to a losing record last year with a playoff-caliber roster.

    The addition of 5 very good players (Latos, Ludwick, Frazier, Cozart and Marshall) to the team this year has convinced a lot of people with short memories that Dusty is a great manager all of a sudden.

    The strength of the team is the pitching staff led by Bryan Price. Of course Dusty has the final word on all decisions, but by all reports Dusty has entrusted Bryan Price to run the pitching staff as he sees fit, and that is exactly what he should have done so Dusty made the right call there. Price is a fantastic pitching coach and I have said that the Reds should make it their highest priority to sign Price to a long-term contract. I don't blame Dusty when there are situations late in games when it is a tough call whether or not to make a pitching change. Some people give him grief for that, but I don't. Those decisions are made by Bryan Price.
    Can you explain how Dusty had a playoff caliber roster last year that simply needed 5 huge upgrades to get to 97 wins this year?

  6. #35
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how is it that you're so omniscient regarding the inner workings of the Reds front office?
    You don't have to be omniscient to understand how it works. Dusty and Jocketty are in this together. They are on the same team. They work together to build a good roster. They are not working in isolation on opposite sides of the planet.

    Managers and General Managers work together throughout baseball. Walt and Dusty have telephones they can use to communicate with each other. Walt's office is in the same building as Dusty's office. They can talk with each other.

    Do you honestly think Jocketty goes out and makes personnel moves without discussing them with Dusty first? That would be ridiculous.

    I am not going to re-post here all the previous threads where we discussed this topic, but I will say a few words again. Dusty and Jocketty communicate almost every day. Both of them have mentioned this to the media several times this year and in previous years. They discuss the roster. They talk about their options. They discuss the minor league players that could come and help. They discuss players in other organizations that could be upgrades for the Reds and hence potential trade targets. In the off-season they discuss which players they want to re-sign and which players they should let walk. They discuss the free agents that they would like to sign. Dusty and Walt come to a consensus on players they both like and want, then Walt goes out and tries to obtain them. Sometimes he is successful and sometimes not. This results in a roster that is full of players both Jocketty and Dusty want on the team.

    Of course they can't get everyone they want. Other teams want many of the same players the Reds want after all. You can't get them all. But what is certain is that Jocketty is not going rogue and bringing in a bunch of bad players that Dusty never wanted. Jocketty is not forcing Dusty to use players he doesn't want. If Dusty really wants a player I am sure Jocketty will make an effort to obtain that player, Corey Patterson for example. Patterson was Dusty's centerfielder and leadoff hitter in Chicago. I would bet good money that Dusty is the one that lobbied for the Reds to go out and and sign Corey Patterson and Jocketty obliged. It is a team effort. Jocketty brings in players that Dusty has expressed interest in. Jocketty isn't cramming players down Dusty's throat.

  7. #36
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    I'm torn about this.

    2 division titles in 3 years, followed by embarrassing exits in the first round.

    Granted, the Phillies pitching staff was incredible but the Reds never threatened. This year, after thrashing the Giants for two games, they couldn't must a third win in 3 attempts at home.

    Jocketty built this team. And they did pretty well while Dusty was not in the clubhouse.

  8. #37
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by mdccclxix View Post
    Can you explain how Dusty had a playoff caliber roster last year that simply needed 5 huge upgrades to get to 97 wins this year?
    Because they were in the playoffs the previous season with the same personnel?

  9. #38
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Because they were in the playoffs the previous season with the same personnel?
    Ok, well, minus Laynce Nix and a healthy Rolen and a healthy Arroyo. Stubbs and Bruce fell back a bit. We saw 2010 was a team that surprised but did not belong. Upgrades all over the roster were called for and never delivered...until 2012.

  10. #39
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Oh, joy. Two more seasons of catchers batting 8th and not having too many players clogging the basepaths.
    As a Mariners fan who has seen multiple managerial changes since Sweet Lou was traded to the Rays, I can say this without hesitation. The problem with wishing for change is that often you get an even worse pair of hands at the helm. And it can be maddening.

    We've reached an equilibrium with Dusty in Cincy that I'm comfortable with at least comfortable enough to fear what might come with a replacement. We know what we got. And, yes it could be worse-alot worse. At least Price is allowed to smooth over one of Dusty's biggests failings-managing the pitching staff.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  11. #40
    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    You don't have to be omniscient to understand how it works. Dusty and Jocketty are in this together. They are on the same team. They work together to build a good roster. They are not working in isolation on opposite sides of the planet.

    Managers and General Managers work together throughout baseball. Walt and Dusty have telephones they can use to communicate with each other. Walt's office is in the same building as Dusty's office. They can talk with each other.

    Do you honestly think Jocketty goes out and makes personnel moves without discussing them with Dusty first? That would be ridiculous.

    I am not going to re-post here all the previous threads where we discussed this topic, but I will say a few words again. Dusty and Jocketty communicate almost every day. Both of them have mentioned this to the media several times this year and in previous years. They discuss the roster. They talk about their options. They discuss the minor league players that could come and help. They discuss players in other organizations that could be upgrades for the Reds and hence potential trade targets. In the off-season they discuss which players they want to re-sign and which players they should let walk. They discuss the free agents that they would like to sign. Dusty and Walt come to a consensus on players they both like and want, then Walt goes out and tries to obtain them. Sometimes he is successful and sometimes not. This results in a roster that is full of players both Jocketty and Dusty want on the team.

    Of course they can't get everyone they want. Other teams want many of the same players the Reds want after all. You can't get them all. But what is certain is that Jocketty is not going rogue and bringing in a bunch of bad players that Dusty never wanted. Jocketty is not forcing Dusty to use players he doesn't want. If Dusty really wants a player I am sure Jocketty will make an effort to obtain that player, Corey Patterson for example. Patterson was Dusty's centerfielder and leadoff hitter in Chicago. I would bet good money that Dusty is the one that lobbied for the Reds to go out and and sign Corey Patterson and Jocketty obliged. It is a team effort. Jocketty brings in players that Dusty has expressed interest in. Jocketty isn't cramming players down Dusty's throat.
    Walt and his staff of scouts amount to a lot more than Dusty's fetching dogs. But yeah, they all work together for sure. No one knows to what extent one guy or another pushes for the players that are acquired, except those in the room.

  12. #41
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    As a Mariners fan who has seen multiple managerial changes since Sweet Lou was traded to the Rays, I can say this without hesitation. The problem with wishing for change is that often you get an even worse pair of hands at the helm. And it can be maddening.

    We've reached an equilibrium with Dusty in Cincy that I'm comfortable with at least comfortable enough to fear what might come with a replacement. We know what we got. And, yes it could be worse-alot worse. At least Price is allowed to smooth over one of Dusty's biggests failings-managing the pitching staff.
    I've seen this mentioned a few times...what kind of evidence do we have that Dusty was managing the staff before and not this year? Because they were good?

  13. #42
    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by durl View Post
    .

    Jocketty built this team. And they did pretty well while Dusty was not in the clubhouse.
    If I am reading this right, by the same logic, the Reds should dump that Votto fella because the Reds were great when he was out of the lineup.

  14. #43
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    If they'd have had a good manager, they would have won 110 games this year. Dusty held them back.

    Okay, I made it a joke, but sometimes I think it's true.

    Good man. Poor strategist.

    1. Low OBP guys in the 1 & 2 -holes. Ridiculous. Patterson. Taveras. Stubbs. Cozart. Give me a break. How in the crap does Votto (when healthy) not knock in 120+ rbi's? Should be a given. It's not with a Dusty lineup.

    2. Overly aggressive hitters. What's the Dusty quote? Something like "nobody walks but the mailman"????? Is that the quote? These guys are always behind in the count giving the pitcher the advantage. I'm nearly 50 years old and I've seen alot of baseball. The hitting approach of this team is one of the worst I've ever seen. If they actually had a hitting plan.......they might win 110+ games. Seriously.

    3. Dusty cannot see the wheels coming off of his pitcher to save his soul. See Leake - Game 4. See Latos - Game 5. See plenty of games during the last 4 or 5 seasons. Drives me up a wall.

    4. Dusty has no sense of urgency to win. He is always thinking about tomorrow's game. I think in Game 5 with Latos on the mound he was thinking about Opening Day 2013 and saving his bullpen for the winter.

    I guess I'll have to live with 2 more years of Dusty driving me crazy. He's a good guy. But he can't win the big one.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  15. #44
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I've seen this mentioned a few times...what kind of evidence do we have that Dusty was managing the staff before and not this year? Because they were good?
    Brian Price has always had control of his staffs. He ran Lou's staffs in Seattle for much the same reason as he does what he does in Cincy.

    And for the record, the staff was good this year because of Jocketty-i.e. it had better pitchers.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  16. #45
    Member VR's Avatar
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    Re: Reds extend manager Dusty Baker's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014.

    I just wish he'd quit giving up grand slams, getting injured, and not getting hits with the tying or winning runs on base.
    Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand


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