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Thread: Confession

  1. #46
    Member RedsFan75's Avatar
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    Re: Confession

    I've "felt" for a while that the preponderance of participants in the World Series have come from the wild card and that there is some advantage of playing for the wild card and not the division.... Nothing concrete, just something didn't feel right about it.

    So a bit of simple research shows that the Wild Card team has been involved heavily in the Series....

    Wild-card World Series participants

    1997 Florida Marlins - Champion
    2000 New York Mets
    2002 Anaheim Angels - Champion
    2002 San Francisco Giants
    2003 Florida Marlins - Champion
    2004 Boston Red Sox - Champion
    2005 Houston Astros
    2006 Detroit Tigers
    2007 Colorado Rockies
    2011 St. Louis Cardinals - Champion

    Still don't know what I make of it, but there is a heavy volume of Wild Card in the World Series...
    In those things which we commit to practice we can master, and with mastery we have the freedom to use these skills whenever we desire, without this practice we are slaves to our inability.

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  3. #47
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    Re: Confession

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper View Post
    Problem is that any cutoff point will be subjective. The wild card was put in to reward good teams who just didn't get to win their division. Many times wild card teams have had better records than division winners. The Cards won 88 this year, not great, but quite good and exactly as many as the Tigers.
    There are a lot of flaws in the playoff systems. Even divisional play itself is artificial. Sometimes, NFL teams with 9-7 or 8-8 records win their divisions, go to the playoffs, and get homefield advantage! Sometimes homefield in multiple games!

    In baseball, there should be more emphasis on the regular season which has so many games. IMO, the Cards should not be in the playoffs this season. They lost their division by 9 games, they had the fifth best record in a league of 16 teams.

    In the AL, five out of 14 teams made the playoffs. Doesn't exactly emphasize regular season excellence.

    Not sour grapes, Cards have a tremendous ballclub in some respects, I particularly admire their offense. I wish the Reds' offense was more like it.

    But there were nine teams with ninety wins or more in MLB this year, and I think it's ridiculous if none of them are in the World Series, largely because of the expansive playoff system.

  4. #48
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    Re: Confession

    To me, the real culprit in tarnishing the WS has been free agency and exploding player salaries.

    What made the World Series different in the 70's was that teams drafted players, and built their team from the ground up. Rosters were filled with mostly home-grown talent and with trade acquisitions acquired in return for home-grown talent. There was never a feeling that any team "bought" a WS by bringing in a bunch of high-priced players. Winners were determined by who had the best scouting, drafting, and development departments and who made the shrewdest trades, rather than who could afford the biggest payrolls. You had two first place finishers in both leagues competing to see who would play in the WS. Now, it has been watered down to watching teams in the post season who ought not be there to begin with.

    Wild Card teams were unheard on in the 70's because there were only two divisions: East and West. The Reds and Dodgers usually dueled for 1st and 2nd place virtually every season in the West, and once the season ended, the West winner would play the East winner to see who advanced to the World Series. That set-up made the whole post-season simpler.

    It all comes back to money. Somebody came to the conclusion that more post-season games means more money coming in - hence the decision to add a best of five playoff series prior to a championship series. The two division set-up was far superior in selecting "true" champions to appear in the WS.
    Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody has one, and they don't want someone else's shoved into their face.

  5. #49
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Confession

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post

    I just want the World Series Champion to be one of the best teams in league, a team that deserves to be in the playoffs, that earned it during the regular season, not an average team that snuck in.
    But your not going to solve that problem if you still keep the current system because many average teams still may sneak into the playoffs. Just because a team wins its division doesn't automatically make that team an above average team. They may have been the best team in that division but the division may have been incredibly weak. My 1973 Mets example is perfect because they won the NL East with 83 games in a very weak division but beat our beloved Reds and their 99 wins in the NLCS. Maybe the system isn't overly fair but unless you want to put just the top 2 from each league in the WS then the possibility will always arise that a team that just snuck in will win the WS.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  6. #50
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    Re: Confession

    Winning the World Series now has little to do with "best team" and much more to do with just getting hot at the right time. Look at the Cards, who plodded unimpressively through the regular season, finishing a whopping nine games behind the Reds, but figured out how to turn it on at the right time.

    Last year, the LA Kings were in a dogfight right down to the final game to barely claim the eighth and final seed in the NHL's Western Conference; they got in and breezed to the Stanley Cup.

    The goal now should be to just get into the playoffs, since even mediocre teams can get the WC now. And take your chances when you get there. Building for the Big 162 like the Reds and Nats and even Yankees did doesn't mean much anymore if hack teams like STL can squeak in and beat, in a short series, the teams that dominated them all year.

    In fact, the playoffs might even favor the second-place finisher since they're more likely to have stayed sharp by playing meaningful games down to the last weekend AND they get new life against the team that won the division. Seems really unfair.

    How to make it better? Maybe WC teams shouldn't get to host any games until the WS. It seems really unfair to the Giants that they won their division and were a better team than the Cards. But they drop one at home and the next thing you know the WC team gets three straight in their park to wrap up the series.
    Last edited by Reds/Flyers Fan; 10-19-2012 at 03:23 PM.

  7. #51
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    Re: Confession

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsFan75 View Post
    I've "felt" for a while that the preponderance of participants in the World Series have come from the wild card and that there is some advantage of playing for the wild card and not the division.... Nothing concrete, just something didn't feel right about it.

    So a bit of simple research shows that the Wild Card team has been involved heavily in the Series....

    Wild-card World Series participants

    1997 Florida Marlins - Champion
    2000 New York Mets
    2002 Anaheim Angels - Champion
    2002 San Francisco Giants
    2003 Florida Marlins - Champion
    2004 Boston Red Sox - Champion
    2005 Houston Astros
    2006 Detroit Tigers
    2007 Colorado Rockies
    2011 St. Louis Cardinals - Champion

    Still don't know what I make of it, but there is a heavy volume of Wild Card in the World Series...
    Nice research.

    I think wild card teams do better in the playoffs because they generally are the ones that were hot down the stretch, and then just carried their hot streak to the playoffs. You have to be on a hot streak down the stretch to win the wild card, but not the division. That gives the wild card teams an advantage.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  8. #52
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    Re: Confession

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    But your not going to solve that problem if you still keep the current system because many average teams still may sneak into the playoffs. Just because a team wins its division doesn't automatically make that team an above average team. They may have been the best team in that division but the division may have been incredibly weak. My 1973 Mets example is perfect because they won the NL East with 83 games in a very weak division but beat our beloved Reds and their 99 wins in the NLCS. Maybe the system isn't overly fair but unless you want to put just the top 2 from each league in the WS then the possibility will always arise that a team that just snuck in will win the WS.
    The Mets earned the right to be in the playoffs by winning a division. That's hard to do, and meaningful in and of itself, no matter how week the division is.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  9. #53
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    Re: Confession

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    But your not going to solve that problem if you still keep the current system because many average teams still may sneak into the playoffs. Just because a team wins its division doesn't automatically make that team an above average team. They may have been the best team in that division but the division may have been incredibly weak. My 1973 Mets example is perfect because they won the NL East with 83 games in a very weak division but beat our beloved Reds and their 99 wins in the NLCS. Maybe the system isn't overly fair but unless you want to put just the top 2 from each league in the WS then the possibility will always arise that a team that just snuck in will win the WS.
    I think the Mets only won 82 that year as there was a rainout that wasn't made up but the thing that gripes me about that series was the Mets had home field advantage.Thats when they alternated every year and best record meant nothing.
    "Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser."

  10. #54
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Confession

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    The Mets earned the right to be in the playoffs by winning a division. That's hard to do, and meaningful in and of itself, no matter how week the division is.
    But if your goal is to put the best teams in the playoffs then in 1973 besides the Reds, the Giants and Dodgers both had superior records to the Mets. So thus it is not fair the Mets got in and the Giants and Dodgers didn't because they had better records. You can say the Giants and Dodgers had bad luck being in the tougher division but am I misunderstanding in that your goal is to get the best regular season teams in the playoffs? If that is the case then scrap the divisions and put all the teams in one division and pick the best records.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  11. #55
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    Re: Confession

    1968

    The last true season.

    And my first

  12. #56
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Confession

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    But if your goal is to put the best teams in the playoffs then in 1973 besides the Reds, the Giants and Dodgers both had superior records to the Mets. So thus it is not fair the Mets got in and the Giants and Dodgers didn't because they had better records. You can say the Giants and Dodgers had bad luck being in the tougher division but am I misunderstanding in that your goal is to get the best regular season teams in the playoffs? If that is the case then scrap the divisions and put all the teams in one division and pick the best records.
    Best record doesn't mean best team, not with unbalanced schedules and Interleague play. That's why winning your division means more.

    And no system is perfect, but I think the older system without wildcards, or at least without two wild cards, was fairer than what we have now.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  13. #57
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Confession

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    1968

    The last true season.
    Exactly.

    The regular season has always served as "playoffs" as a sort for baseball, with teams fighting off each other down the stretch. The winner then takes the "Pennant" and goes on to the World Series, to face the survivor of the other league.

    I'm in favor of going back, and throwing out Montreal, San Diego, and everyone who came after them and going back to playing real baseball. I make an exception for Kansas City, as it took the Royals 25 years until they finished last in their division. They were truly an outstanding expansion franchise.

    Seriously, if MLB is going to keep adding layer upon layer of wild card teams in order drum up TV ratings, it cheapens the regular season, and truly makes it too long, since the regular season has far less meaning. Shortening the season will wreak havoc on historic stats.

    My solution (and I think I read it above as well) is to go back to NL and AL, get rid of divisions and wild cards, winner goes to the WS. You will still have all of the excitement and with this many teams, most years the race will go down to the wire. With all the excitement of drummed up "wild card games," except the winner will truly deserve to go to the WS.

  14. #58
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    Re: Confession

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    But if your goal is to put the best teams in the playoffs then in 1973 besides the Reds, the Giants and Dodgers both had superior records to the Mets. So thus it is not fair the Mets got in and the Giants and Dodgers didn't because they had better records. You can say the Giants and Dodgers had bad luck being in the tougher division but am I misunderstanding in that your goal is to get the best regular season teams in the playoffs? If that is the case then scrap the divisions and put all the teams in one division and pick the best records.
    Actually, it made seasonal play much more interesting. In those days every series against a Western division rival had a playoff feel to it. The "poor" teams were not necessarily "bad" teams. But if you were the Braves or Padres in those days and had to play the Reds and Dodgers for about 25-30% of your games over a season, you were not going to finish very high in the standings.
    Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody has one, and they don't want someone else's shoved into their face.

  15. #59
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Confession

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    Who is to say the Reds' 97 wins are better than the Giants' 94 wins when the Reds get to fatten up on the pathetic Cubs and Astros? This is just a very subjective argument as to what "best team" means.
    Neither one of them finished in 2nd place and proved they were not as good as someone else.

    There is no good reason to allow a team to win the World Series after they already proved they were not the best.

  16. #60
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Confession

    I'm actually pulling for the Cards.. have been since the Reds were eliminated. But not pulling for them enough to actually watch the games.
    But I can understand why people don't like the Cards.

    I can accept that the playoffs are purely for entertainment and money.. It's a flawed way of determining the "Best" team.. but there's no real practical way of doing it differently which would generate similiar excitement..
    Do we have every team play an identical schedule and then declare the team with the best record the champ? That would probably be more accurate, but not very exciting. This year, we'd just have the "race" between the Reds and the Nats to finish with the best regular season record.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!


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