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Thread: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

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  1. #1
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/...s_cin&c_id=cin

    I didn't see where this was posted anywhere on here yet, but IMO, and with out question, this has to be this FO's #1 priority in the off-season.

    Regardless of the fact we won 97 games.....

    This past season, the Reds had seven different players bat first -- Zack Cozart, Drew Stubbs, Brandon Phillips and Chris Heisey saw the most time there, with Willie Harris, Xavier Paul and Wilson Valdez also getting cameo appearances.

    The result? Reds leadoff hitters combined to bat .208 with a .254 on-base percentage -- both ranked last in the Major Leagues. The No. 1 hitters scored 83 runs, tied for the second-worst among the 30 big league teams.
    For the last few years we've basically been trying to fit a square peg in a round hole in this area.

    We're all excited and dreaming of Billy Hamilton. But the earliest we'll see him is the 2014 season. He's not only learning a new position (CF), but he also has to be allowed to progress through the system and show he can hit, consistently get on base, at this level. So he's not going to be rushed.

    So what does this FO do in the meantime?

    Bourn would be nice. Two words though.... Scott Boras. He will be a coveted prize this off-season by a lot of teams. Boras is licking his chops, and IMO, no way you'll see him a Red.

    The Giant's Pagan, who will be a FA after the WS, would be nice. My guess is he'll stay a Giant because they will throw the money at him.

    So what's left? I realize that anything, when looking at who may be available in the market, is better then what we had. So do we settle for that, treat it as a stop-gap move, while keeping our fingers crossed on Hamilton?

    I really want no part of Coco Crisp. Not at $7M/yr, and a career .329 OB%. I guess if I had to choose anyone from this article it would be Juan Pierre... he will rack up the singles and walks, batted .307 with a .351 OBP and 37 steals for the Phillies this past season, and earned $800,000 doing it. He's in our price range.

    It's just sad what has happened to Grady Sizemore. Always liked him, but the guy has been wrecked with injuries (back, knees).
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    I'd just keep BP there for the whole season.

    Reds need a big bat, not another little one.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Member Tadasimha's Avatar
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    Re: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    They should bat Votto at lead-off. Phillips has been a better hitter in the 3rd or 4th spot than leading off for the past several seasons. Votto is an on-base machine and hitting doubles the way he does from the lead-off spot would put a runner in scoring position immediately.

    Let Cozart bat 2nd (he hit 100 points higher from that spot than from leadoff) then follow with Bruce, Phillips, Frazier, LF, CF (whomever that is), Hannigan/Mes, pitcher.

    Another advantage of moving Votto up is that the Reds wouldn't be at a disadvantage negotiating a trade or signing a FA since what they need (a left handed outfielder with high OBP) wouldn't be as specific.
    If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve!

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    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Tadasimha View Post
    They should bat Votto at lead-off. Phillips has been a better hitter in the 3rd or 4th spot than leading off for the past several seasons. Votto is an on-base machine and hitting doubles the way he does from the lead-off spot would put a runner in scoring position immediately.

    Let Cozart bat 2nd (he hit 100 points higher from that spot than from leadoff) then follow with Bruce, Phillips, Frazier, LF, CF (whomever that is), Hannigan/Mes, pitcher.

    Another advantage of moving Votto up is that the Reds wouldn't be at a disadvantage negotiating a trade or signing a FA since what they need (a left handed outfielder with high OBP) wouldn't be as specific.
    I'm told that ultimately batting order doesn't matter that much -- as long as your best hitters are somewhere at the top, you are doing something right, which is why Dusty's lineups are sometimes so frustrating. I think batting Joey leadoff would make sense given his propensity for getting on-base. Certainly, the version of Votto we saw post-knee this season could be a dynamite leadoff hitter. Think Tony Gwynn.

    But if we get the Joey we all know and love -- the one with the 1.000+ OPS, the doubles machine who hits 30 HR by accident with his "process swing" -- then I think leadoff is a mistake. He's the guy you want hitting with other people on the basepaths; that's how you maximize the value of his XBH.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    Member Superdude's Avatar
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    Re: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    I'm told that ultimately batting order doesn't matter that much -- as long as your best hitters are somewhere at the top, you are doing something right, which is why Dusty's lineups are sometimes so frustrating. I think batting Joey leadoff would make sense given his propensity for getting on-base. Certainly, the version of Votto we saw post-knee this season could be a dynamite leadoff hitter. Think Tony Gwynn.
    If Votto still isn't pre-surgery Votto, we've got a lot bigger problems than just figuring out where to bat him in the lineup.

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    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    If Votto still isn't pre-surgery Votto, we've got a lot bigger problems than just figuring out where to bat him in the lineup.
    We are agreed on that, sir. But I think he will be.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I'd just keep BP there for the whole season.

    Reds need a big bat, not another little one.
    Spot on. Get a big LH bat for LF who can actually PLAY left field.

    But, if the Reds are insistent on getting a leadoff hitter, then trading for Shin Soo Choo is my number 1 target and plop him down in left.
    Last edited by _Sir_Charles_; 10-26-2012 at 10:07 AM. Reason: meant left handed. Although a switch hitter would be great.
    2014 predictions:
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    Re: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Spot on. Get a big LH bat for LF who can actually PLAY left field.

    But, if the Reds are insistent on getting a leadoff hitter, then trading for Shin Soo Choo is my number 1 target and plop him down in left.
    Agree with this. My priorities:

    1. Justin Upton
    2. Dexter Fowler
    3. Jacoby Ellsbury
    4. Shin Soo-Choo
    5. Re-sign Ryan Ludwick to a 2 year deal and get a one year stop-gap in CF.
    Go BLUE!!!

  9. #9
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Spot on. Get a big LH bat for LF who can actually PLAY left field.

    But, if the Reds are insistent on getting a leadoff hitter, then trading for Shin Soo Choo is my number 1 target and plop him down in left.
    Yes, I agree.
    It sure would be nice to get a CF with a high OBP, but supposedly they were asking a king's ransom for Span.. If we are going to pay through the nose, I'd rather do it on a guy like Choo. Hopefully the Indians are in tear down mode this winter.

    And yes, I'm also more worried about replacing Ludwick's production than I am in upgrading CF.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

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    Re: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Yes, I agree.
    It sure would be nice to get a CF with a high OBP, but supposedly they were asking a king's ransom for Span.. If we are going to pay through the nose, I'd rather do it on a guy like Choo. Hopefully the Indians are in tear down mode this winter.
    You'd rather pay through the nose for one year of a corner OF (Choo) rather than 3 years of a CF?

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    Re: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I'd just keep BP there for the whole season.

    Reds need a big bat, not another little one.
    I have been on board with acquiring Span in the off-season to bat lead-off and play LF or CF depending on who we trade and who else we pick up. Unless we pick up a big time bat in left field, which will be hard to do due to financial constraints, this probably puts BP back in the 4 hole or potentially Frazier.

    While BP isn't the best 4-hole option in baseball, he is solid and consistent, and has done a respectable job in the 4-hole previously. Also, if Frazier continues to perform like he did this year, he could easily take over the 4-hole and push BP up to number 2.

    Assuming we can find a cheap LF option to provide a steady but not great bat in the lineup .800 ops type. Acquiring Span would improve the lineup quite a bit. I just do not want the black hole that has been CF and lead-off to continue, and I feel BP's bat is more valuable elsewhere in the lineup.

    Now if we can pull of a trade for a young cheap clean-up type...I would be all on board, I just think a Span type move would add a lot as well.
    "Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.

  12. #12
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    If I had to bet on one guy the Reds pick up, I think it's Denard Span (for young pitching).
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    If I had to bet on one guy the Reds pick up, I think it's Denard Span (for young pitching).
    Winner! (I hope.)

  14. #14
    Two-Time Batting Champ Edd Roush's Avatar
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    Re: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    Winner! (I hope.)
    If the Reds get Denard Span this off-season, I will be very happy. Then, I will wonder, if the Reds liked him, why didn't we get him at the trade deadline. I really think Denard Span could have been the difference between an NLDS heartbreaker and something more in the post-season.

    Span just makes so much sense for a team like the Reds. Let's hope Walt gets it done.

  15. #15
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Adding productive leadoff man is Reds' top priority

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    If I had to bet on one guy the Reds pick up, I think it's Denard Span (for young pitching).
    Wow! I didn't know the Reds had, at one point earlier this year, talked with the Twins about Span

    http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/sc...pan-with-twins

    Another interesting article on Span (and the Twins)....

    http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_...stay-minnesota

    He's signed through 2014 (13:$4.75M, 14:$6.5M), with a club option for 2015 ($9M).

    The Twins have depth in the OF position within their system. They're hurting for starting pitching. What could we offer them that may be appealing to them?

    A deal like this would be great IMO. You've got him signed through 2014, which coincides with Hamilton's projected entrance. It fills a need, and buys you some time at no great cost. And if nothing else, could he be moved to LF?
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations


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