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Thread: Gold Glove nominees named....

  1. #16
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    Hanigan should have been nominated but he was not the best in the NL by far. Molina caught 1161 innings compared to Hanigans 879 innings, which is a huge part of why A. Hanigan wasn't nominated and B. why it's hard to compare the two's stats. Molina led all of catchers in baseball in defensive runs saved as well. He won another Fielding Bible Award. I don't see how the two are even comparable on defense. Molina was by far the best defensive catcher in baseball this year, if you take the amount of innings he caught into the equation.

    I do question though why Ruiz was nominated and not Hanigan. Hanigan caught more innings and had more defensive runs saved than Ruiz. That is where the snub is, in my opinion.
    Agree to disagree. Mainly on the stat DRS. I have very little confidence in that stat (and many of the new fielding stats). Molina was by far the best catcher in all of MLB this year. No question. If you include the bat. But defensively & handling pitchers, sorry...not buying it.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

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  3. #17
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Agree to disagree. Mainly on the stat DRS. I have very little confidence in that stat (and many of the new fielding stats). Molina was by far the best catcher in all of MLB this year. No question. If you include the bat. But defensively & handling pitchers, sorry...not buying it.
    I really think amount of innings caught has to play into the equation here. Who knows how many BP, WP, CS Hanigan would have if he caught the amount of innings Molina did. I think it goes to show you how dominant Molina was this year on defense that Hanigan only had 7 less stolen base attemps against him than Molina even though Hanigan played in something like 270 innings less than Molina. Still, there is no excuse for Ruiz being nominated over Hanigan.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  4. #18
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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Yadi was the best defensive catcher in the league this year.

    For the record, I have zero amount of butt hurt that Hanigan wasn't nominated for the award.
    I think I would describe myself as having a residual amount of butthurt about it, personally.
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  5. #19
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    I really think amount of innings caught has to play into the equation here. Who knows how many BP, WP, CS Hanigan would have if he caught the amount of innings Molina did. I think it goes to show you how dominant Molina was this year on defense that Hanigan only had 7 less stolen base attemps against him than Molina even though Hanigan played in something like 270 innings less than Molina. Still, there is no excuse for Ruiz being nominated over Hanigan.
    Let me be clear. Molina is an elite catcher. Period. But every player has ups and downs. This year was Molina's up offensive year and DOWN defensive year. I agree that innings caught should be a factor, but not a deciding one. The quality of those innings are what matters most IMO. And this season, Yadi fell short of Hanny. More guys ran and ran successfully on Molina. But for me, the number one job of a catcher (outside of anything with a bat) is how he handles the pitchers and the results of how he handles the pitchers. I know many don't put stock into Catchers' ERA, but I do. I also put stock into the winning percentage of a catcher. And it's not just with the starters, but with the relievers as well. The whole staff. And this season, Hanigan was better than Molina. Both handling pitchers and defending.

    As I said, agree to disagree.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  6. #20
    Bread Gloves Razor Shines's Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    Brandon Phillips‏@DatDudeBP: My 2012 ⚾ Season/Postseason was GOOD... but NOT GOOD enough: No #AllStar + No #GoldGlove + No #SilverSlugger + No #WSRing = #MOTIVATION
    Well hopefully he doesn't win either SS or GG, otherwise he clearly won't be as #motivated.

  7. #21
    Future Fame of Holler WildcatFan's Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    A little surprised Cueto isn't there for holding runners on better than anyone in the league.
    "I never argue with people who say baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn't. And that's what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski

  8. #22
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    Molina did not have a down year. His down year was last year when Ryan Theriot couldn't catch anything thrown to him when runners tried to steal off of Molina. More guys ran and ran successfully on Molina because Molina caught 270 more innings than Hannigan. If Hanigan caught as many innings as Molina did, more runners would have attempted to steal off of Hannigan if you go by the attempted stealing rate (Hannigan had .075 runners per inning attempt to steal off of him compared to .062 per inning for Molina). It wasn't because of Molina's "lack" of defensive skill. Pure mathematics made it that way.

    Catchers ERA can be a bit deceptive as well because some catchers do not handle certain pitchers, like in the case with Hanigan. Molina caught everyone. The other flaw with Catchers ERA is that it doesn't take into account naturally bad pitchers. Cincy would have had a great bullpen this year regardless of catcher. If Hanigan wasn't behind the plate, Chapman would have still had one of the best years of any reliever in MLB history. This is also the case if you have bad pitchers on your pitching staff. Some of the Cardinals relievers would have been bad regardless if Molina or Hanigan was behind the plate. The Cardinals had one of the best starting rotations in baseball this year but their overall ERA was mediocre because the bullpen was so bad most of the year. The Reds had good starting pitching and brilliant bullpen talent so obviously it reflects better on Hannigan. It has nothing to do with how Hannigan calls the game though. Pitching talent is the #1 factor there. No catcher in baseball would have made Victor Marte all of a sudden a better pitcher. There is no real evidence to suggest that catchers influence ERA.
    Last edited by MikeThierry; 10-30-2012 at 04:56 PM.
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    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

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  9. #23
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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    I think it goes to show you how dominant Molina was this year on defense that Hanigan only had 7 less stolen base attemps against him than Molina even though Hanigan played in something like 270 innings less than Molina.
    That makes him more respected perhaps, not more dominant. Hanigan threw out close to 50% of base stealers this year. The more stolen base attempts the better with a rate like that. They're only hurting themselves.

  10. #24
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    That makes him more respected perhaps, not more dominant. Hanigan threw out close to 50% of base stealers this year. The more stolen base attempts the better with a rate like that. They're only hurting themselves.
    It's hard to say if he keeps up that rate if he caught 270 innings more. Both Molina and Hanigan threw out 48% of runners so Hanigan doesn't have an edge over Molina in that regard.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

    Mike Shannon

  11. #25
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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    It's hard to say if he keeps up that rate if he caught 270 innings more. Both Molina and Hanigan threw out 48% of runners so Hanigan doesn't have an edge over Molina in that regard.
    I'm not making a case for Hanigan over Molina. Just saying stolen base attempts is an odd criteria, especially when each attempt on average is a net loss for the other team.

  12. #26
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    I'm not making a case for Hanigan over Molina. Just saying stolen base attempts is an odd criteria, especially when each attempt on average is a net loss for the other team.
    I think part of it is the ability to hold runners on. When Molina is behind the plate (and I assume its the same for Hanigan), runners do not take huge leads. This has some impact on runners ability to go first to third on base hits. I know it's a negative play but at the same time, I think it's still important because teams still use the running game. Most managers still think it's a positive play anyways.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

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  13. #27
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Let me be clear. Molina is an elite catcher. Period. But every player has ups and downs. This year was Molina's up offensive year and DOWN defensive year. I agree that innings caught should be a factor, but not a deciding one. The quality of those innings are what matters most IMO. And this season, Yadi fell short of Hanny. More guys ran and ran successfully on Molina. But for me, the number one job of a catcher (outside of anything with a bat) is how he handles the pitchers and the results of how he handles the pitchers. I know many don't put stock into Catchers' ERA, but I do. I also put stock into the winning percentage of a catcher. And it's not just with the starters, but with the relievers as well. The whole staff. And this season, Hanigan was better than Molina. Both handling pitchers and defending.

    As I said, agree to disagree.


    No doubt that Hanigan was great last season, perhaps even better than Molina on a per game basis. At the same time, I don't think there is much evidence to suggest that Molina had a down year defensively last season. He was the glue holding that team together.

  14. #28
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    Molina did not have a down year.
    My apologies on that part. When I'm wrong, I fess up. When I looked at Molina's career stats earlier today, whatever page I was looking at didn't show his 2012 year. So I was seeing his 2011 defensive stats. But when I compared all catchers in 2012, I stand by my assertion that Hanigan had a better defensive year. I know there's no way that anybody but Molina will get the award though. There's always players who get awards based on their history and not the actual facts of the season. Ozzie got some he didn't deserve. Brooks got some he didn't deserve. Jeter, Morgan, etc, etc, etc. I won't have a problem with Yadier winning the GG this year. He's certainly a deserving player. I just can't stand it when it's taken for granted that someone will get it based on reputation alone. And I especially can't stand it when a clearly deserving player gets completely snubbed...and I don't think anybody can argue that point in regards to Ryan this season.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    It has nothing to do with how Hannigan calls the game though. Pitching talent is the #1 factor there. There is no real evidence to suggest that catchers influence ERA.
    There is no real evidence that they don't either.

    Saying that Hannigan didn't influence the Reds pitchers becuase they are great dismisses the possibilty (however small) that in fact he may have made a difference.

    The Reds gave up the least amount of runs in the NL. For those of us who watch them every night, there is no doubt that the Reds defense (including Hannigan) were a part of that equation. When you consider the ball park they play in, the Reds runs allowed this year is an incredible achievement.

  16. #30
    Senor Votto Degenerate39's Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove nominees named....

    When are they announcing the winners?
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