Turn Off Ads?
Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 141

Thread: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

  1. #31
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Carmel, IN
    Posts
    4,548

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unassisted View Post
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Does anyone have fond memories of the Danny Graves-to-SP experiment?
    I don't think you can compare Graves talent to Aroldis.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.


  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #32
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,358

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    Quote Originally Posted by cincyinco View Post
    Anything to give Leake less starts.. He's a good back end pitcher, but I wonder where we would have been this year in the playoffs when Cueto went down, had we had another potential hammer in Chapman starting games.

    Chapman, Cueto, Latos is a top 3 I would salivate over. Homer and Arroyo in the back. Leake as insurance or trade bait with Cingrini being "close".
    Hindsight is nice, however is it a lock that we get to the playoffs with Aroldis in the rotation?

  4. #33
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,358

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Sure, but we already know for a fact that he can be Kimbrel. Why settle for that when you could get more and if you can't, the odds are pretty strong he can go back to being a guy like Kimbrel? The only real downside is the injury thing and that is going to be there whether he starts or relieves.
    Do you think the injury risk is the same whether he remains at closer or transitions to the rotation? And why do you think the odds are pretty strong that he goes back and being a guy like Kimbrel? It is easy to speak in the hypothetical.

  5. #34
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta, aka, the most prosperous city in the world.
    Posts
    13,308

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I don't get the mindset of those who want to keep him as a closer. I really don't. Would you have have Justin Verlander or Craig Kimbrel? That is a no brainer. The Reds potentially have a Verlander but they are using him like Kimbrel. Both are quite valuable, but one is a whole lot more valuable than the other.
    I think the big question is whether Chapamn would be like Verlander. The odds are likely against it.


    There are lots of pitchers who throw very hard who likely couldn't cut is as a starter.

    The Braves must think that Krimel couldn't.

    Now none of this means he can't be a starter, but you stated you don't get the mindset of those who would prefer a Krimel over a Verlander. No one would. It's just that many don't know if you would get a Verlander.

  6. #35
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    49,393

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I think the big question is whether Chapamn would be like Verlander. The odds are likely against it.


    There are lots of pitchers who throw very hard who likely couldn't cut is as a starter.

    The Braves must think that Krimel couldn't.

    Now none of this means he can't be a starter, but you stated you don't get the mindset of those who would prefer a Krimel over a Verlander. No one would. It's just that many don't know if you would get a Verlander.
    You probably won't get a Verlander. But what if you get a Cueto? Or a Latos? Each of those guys are also quite a bit more valuable than a Kimbrel. I don't know, I see it as not taking a risk to be great simply because you are content with being good. That isn't really on the player, but on management.

  7. #36
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    35,027

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    Maximize Chapman's talent, let him start.
    “I don’t care,” Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. “He’s in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.”

  8. #37
    Member RollyInRaleigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Posts
    15,738

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    Chapman could be successful as a starter, but the clock is ticking on his time in Cincinnati and it will take some time for him to transition, if he actually can. He definitely will have to come up with a third pitch that he can consistently throw for strikes. I also agree with the comment that a failed attempt at starting could weigh very heavy on a seemingly fragile psyche, returning to the closer role. I honestly wonder what the kid really wants to do.

  9. #38
    Moderator Plus Plus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    2,551

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    You probably won't get a Verlander. But what if you get a Cueto? Or a Latos? Each of those guys are also quite a bit more valuable than a Kimbrel. I don't know, I see it as not taking a risk to be great simply because you are content with being good. That isn't really on the player, but on management.
    Latos 2012 fWAR- 3.1
    Latos 2011 fWAR- 3.3

    Kimbrel 2012 fWAR- 3.6
    Kimbrel 2011 fWAR- 3.2

    Chapman 2012 fWAR- 3.3
    Chapman 2011 fWAR- let's not talk about it.

    Fangraphs also has written articles that I had sourced in previous Chapman-to-the-bullpen discussions that say that fWAR for SP and RP aren't interchangeable, and that WPA is a better predictor of wins added by a RP than WAR is.

    My view is that right now, we have a sure-fire top 3 closer in MLB. If he is converted to SP, then a new closer needs to be identified and implemented, the back end of the bullpen should be reworked, and a new home needs to be found for one (or both) of Bailey and Leake. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that he either thrives as a starter and becomes Latos, Bumgarner, or Samardzjia (let alone Verlander), and there is no guarantee that if he fails as a starter that he can just put his Kimbrel mask back on and return to being a dominant closer.

    I truly feel that the Chapman to starter ship has sailed in the eyes of the management (like it or not)in terms of his role with the Reds for now; the team is competitive and it doesn't make sense, no matter how much Lance McAllister or Mo Egger want you to believe, to fundamentally change the current squad. I would rather use time and energy getting more of a sure thing, such as a Garza or Haren, and keep Chapman as insurance that games only last eight innings.
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished
    Long live punishment
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Cut back on booze and pizza?
    Good god man get a hold of yourself

  10. #39
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    49,393

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    Latos 2012 fWAR- 3.1
    Latos 2011 fWAR- 3.3

    Kimbrel 2012 fWAR- 3.6
    Kimbrel 2011 fWAR- 3.2

    Chapman 2012 fWAR- 3.3
    Chapman 2011 fWAR- let's not talk about it.

    Fangraphs also has written articles that I had sourced in previous Chapman-to-the-bullpen discussions that say that fWAR for SP and RP aren't interchangeable, and that WPA is a better predictor of wins added by a RP than WAR is.

    My view is that right now, we have a sure-fire top 3 closer in MLB. If he is converted to SP, then a new closer needs to be identified and implemented, the back end of the bullpen should be reworked, and a new home needs to be found for one (or both) of Bailey and Leake. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that he either thrives as a starter and becomes Latos, Bumgarner, or Samardzjia (let alone Verlander), and there is no guarantee that if he fails as a starter that he can just put his Kimbrel mask back on and return to being a dominant closer.

    I truly feel that the Chapman to starter ship has sailed in the eyes of the management (like it or not)in terms of his role with the Reds for now; the team is competitive and it doesn't make sense, no matter how much Lance McAllister or Mo Egger want you to believe, to fundamentally change the current squad. I would rather use time and energy getting more of a sure thing, such as a Garza or Haren, and keep Chapman as insurance that games only last eight innings.
    I am not much a fan of pitching WAR. Too many variables unaccounted for. Nothing hammers that home for me more than Chapman's sub 80 innings being more valuable than the 200 that Latos produced.

  11. #40
    Moderator Plus Plus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    2,551

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I am not much a fan of pitching WAR. Too many variables unaccounted for. Nothing hammers that home for me more than Chapman's sub 80 innings being more valuable than the 200 that Latos produced.
    Just out of curiosity (because I think WAR is a little bit of a misleading stat, anyway... it just made sense in this situation )... do you think pitching WAR is skewed more towards RP or SP? Do you think it is just too volatile given the roles and profiles of the players? I think both of these are good answers, but just want to pick your brain about it
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished
    Long live punishment
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Cut back on booze and pizza?
    Good god man get a hold of yourself

  12. #41
    Member kaldaniels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    17,848

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    "Would you rather have a Verlander or a Kimbrel?" is not the correct question to ask.

    A more accurate and fair question would be "You have a Craig Kimbrel-like closer on your team. Would you risk removing him from that role in the hopes that he becomes a successful starter?"

    Honestly, I am fine with whatever the Reds do at this junction. If I were in charge 3 years ago, I would have strictly brought him up as a starter unless he showed me that it just wasn't in the cards. If I was in the GM chair today, I'd be inclined to let him carry on as a closer, though I could be convinced otherwise, depending on my available options to upgrade the staff/bullpen/closer via trades/FA.

  13. #42
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    35,386

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    I respect the view that the Reds should concentrate on finding a very strong closer this off-season and start Chapman next year. I think that might be an ideal solution.

    I don't think much of the view to let Chappy start and "the bullpen will take care of itself."

    This isn't a Baseball America top prospects list. Team balance and needs are important too.

    If the Reds had Madson of 2011, I'd easily want Chapman to start.
    Broxton as closer? Not for me, let Chapman close.
    Somebody else as closer? Depends on who.

  14. #43
    Member Superdude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    2,812

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Honestly, I am fine with whatever the Reds do at this junction. If I were in charge 3 years ago, I would have strictly brought him up as a starter unless he showed me that it just wasn't in the cards. If I was in the GM chair today, I'd be inclined to let him carry on as a closer, though I could be convinced otherwise, depending on my available options to upgrade the staff/bullpen/closer via trades/FA.
    Yep. It's like getting straight A's in high school and then not going to college. A horrible, shortsighted, reprehensible decision in the beginning, but going back 30 years later is just impractical.

  15. #44
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    49,393

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    Just out of curiosity (because I think WAR is a little bit of a misleading stat, anyway... it just made sense in this situation )... do you think pitching WAR is skewed more towards RP or SP? Do you think it is just too volatile given the roles and profiles of the players? I think both of these are good answers, but just want to pick your brain about it
    Well, first it brings up the question, which WAR are we talking about? Both versions have their own problems. When I look at pitching WAR it doesn't always jive with reality for me. I guess that position player WAR doesn't either, but that is always entirely due to defensive calculations causing either too much or to little value in the overall number. That can generally speaking, be accounted for by thumb in the air "how good is this guy defensively" calculation and you are probably good to go. With pitchers, it isn't really that easy. In both pitching WAR calculations there are assumptions made that I don't particularly agree with. I don't have a lot of time to get into it all right now, I have to pick up my dog from the vet shortly, so I will just leave it at: I don't agree with the assumptions made in either pitching WAR number and generally just avoid it at most times.

  16. #45
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    4,716

    Re: Please tell me the Reds aren't keeping Aroldis at closer...

    Why don't the Braves make Kimbrel a starter?


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | Gallen5862 | Plus Plus | Powel Crosley | RedlegJake | The Operator