Bill Bray and Wilson Valdez non-tendered

[WildcatFan]

According to Lance McAlister:

https://twitter.com/LanceMcAlister/s...45826398601218

#Reds will non-tender Bill Bray. He was eligible for arbitration. He now becomes a free agent. I wish Bill the best and good health.

[George Anderson]

So who won "the trade".

The can of worms is opened.

[puca]

So who won "the trade".

The can of worms is opened.

No one. Both teams lost.

[Benihana]

No one. Both teams lost.

[westofyou]

So who won "the trade".

The can of worms is opened.

Reds lost by not getting a good return on players their fans overrated

Washington lost by not getting excess value from players the Reds fans overrated

The real loser were Reds fans, because it was just more suck, on top of already existing suck.

[RedEye]

So who won "the trade".

The can of worms is opened.

In the end, nobody won it. But the Reds still could have and should have gotten more at the time.

[RedFanAlways1966]

So who won "the trade".

The can of worms is opened.

The REDS and it is not even close. Just for the fact that they unloaded two players that made way more money than they deserved. One of these players was so bad that they released him (also the worst fielding SS in 2007). I do not care what the REDS got back... they unloaded two players who were not that good and frankly did not deserve to be in the starting lineup for most MLB teams despite getting starting-8 type of money.

OPS+
* Kearns: 113 w/ REDS ; 92 w/ NATS
* Lopez: 97 w/ REDS ; 76 w/ NATS

MONEY!
* Kearns in Wash.: 2007 = $3.5 mill, 2008 = $5.0 mill, 2009 = $8.0 mill
* Lopez in Wash.: 2007 = $3.9 mill, 2008 = $4.9 mill (released 7-31-2008!)

[REDREAD]

So who won "the trade".

The can of worms is opened.

In terms of pure production, the Nats won easily.

I guess some people will claim the Reds won because they save money, but the Reds could've accomplished the same thing by nontendering Kearns and Lopez.
In the end, the Reds got 174 IP out of Bray.. about 80 IP of those (my estimate) were good. The remaining were mediocre or bad. Only accumulated 1.8 WAR over his 6 year stay here.

I remember when people were clinging to Daryl Thompson being the savior of the trade. I guess there will be a new rationalization now to justify the Reds winning this.

The biggest impact was that the 2007 team which was in pseudo-contention collapsed after the "Trade"
Clayton, Maj, and Bray (along with Freel and maybe Deno in the OF after the trade) contributed a lot to the collapse.

Seems like an obvious loss for the Reds to me.

[traderumor]

In terms of pure production, the Nats won easily.

I guess some people will claim the Reds won because they save money, but the Reds could've accomplished the same thing by nontendering Kearns and Lopez.
In the end, the Reds got 174 IP out of Bray.. about 80 IP of those (my estimate) were good. The remaining were mediocre or bad. Only accumulated 1.8 WAR over his 6 year stay here.

I remember when people were clinging to Daryl Thompson being the savior of the trade. I guess there will be a new rationalization now to justify the Reds winning this.

The biggest impact was that the 2007 team which was in pseudo-contention collapsed after the "Trade"
Clayton, Maj, and Bray (along with Freel and maybe Deno in the OF after the trade) contributed a lot to the collapse.

Seems like an obvious loss for the Reds to me.

Put me in the "I don't care" since the deal is too far removed to have any current impact and everyone involved career's are either dead or on life support. Also, the folks making the deal no longer have any decision making capacity with the Reds. The amount of analysis performed on this trade just goes to show how slim the pickings were in "exciting" transactions of that time period.

[UKFlounder]

Or of this offseason so far (thought not meant as a complaint - just a statement that not much has happened for the Reds yet)

Put me in the "I don't care" since the deal is too far removed to have any current impact and everyone involved career's are either dead or on life support. Also, the folks making the deal no longer have any decision making capacity with the Reds. The amount of analysis performed on this trade just goes to show how slim the pickings were in "exciting" transactions of that time period.

[traderumor]

Or of this offseason so far (thought not meant as a complaint - just a statement that not much has happened for the Reds yet)

Well it has been all of a week since the offseason officially started. Lollygaggers

[Crumbley]

Put me in the "I don't care" since the deal is too far removed to have any current impact and everyone involved career's are either dead or on life support. Also, the folks making the deal no longer have any decision making capacity with the Reds. The amount of analysis performed on this trade just goes to show how slim the pickings were in "exciting" transactions of that time period.

Remember the John Vander Wal press conference? He went on to break his knee shoveling snow.

[PuffyPig]

In terms of pure production, the Nats won easily.

But when you look at how much that production cost them, it's far from clear.

[REDREAD]

But when you look at how much that production cost them, it's far from clear.

It all depends on how you chose to look at it.
Extreme example.. the Reds trade for David Wright today for Logan O.
He wins the MVP in 2013.
Reds sign him longterm to a 10 year 300 million dollar contract.
He becomes ineffective the rest of his career.

Seems like a good trade, but the extension backfired.


The Reds gave Masset a two year contract last offseason for 5 or 6 million.. There's a good chance they will get zero production from that contract.. but that doesn't negate the fact that Jr for Masset was a pretty good trade.

Heck, the Reds paid a roughly 3 - 3.2 million to Bray his entire career, to get spotty production..

[RedFanAlways1966]

It all depends on how you chose to look at it.

Heck, the Reds paid a roughly 3 - 3.2 million to Bray his entire career, to get spotty production..

I guess it depends on your definition of "production". And then "bang for the buck". What Lopez and Kearns did in WASH was below average (not to mention Lopez' glove). However, in an earlier comment you claimed they were productive in WASH. Versus what? And do we even want to start a discussion on "bang for the buck" relative to AK and FL in WASH? No matter how it is twisted-and-turned (w/ your examples) it was a bad move for WASH. And I am very glad that AK and FL were not making that money for that (lack of) production for two supposed starters on our fav team.

Bray earned less in his entire time here than Lopez did in a single season there. That should just about end the argument. Of course we still have AK's $16+ million in WASH. Pretty obviou$ who got the wor$e of that deal. Production? Better find better production than "Nats starters" AK and FL. Unless they were paid the amount that Bill Bray received while wearing a C on his hat.