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Thread: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

  1. #106
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    Re: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

    After Didi, the pickings are VERY slim. I'm sorry, that's not a surplus. That's the bare minimum that every team should strive for.
    It is a surplus.

    Cozart/Didi + utility guy backup < Cozart/Didi + what you can get for Cozart/Didi

    The deal doesn't have to happen this offseason, but it could. It could also happen a year from now. Having two starting-quality young shortstops, and keeping one on the bench, is a waste of resources.
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  3. #107
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    It is a surplus.

    Cozart/Didi + utility guy backup < Cozart/Didi + what you can get for Cozart/Didi

    The deal doesn't have to happen this offseason, but it could. It could also happen a year from now. Having two starting-quality young shortstops, and keeping one on the bench, is a waste of resources.
    But there's the incorrect assumption. We don't know that Didi is a starting quality shortstop yet. Heck, we're still not completely sure about Zack. The glove is there for both guys, but the offense is the question. I think Zack has the better bat. But Didi is still young enough that his bat could develop more...or he could turn into Janish. Regardless on how people feel about dealing one of these guys, Gregorious needs more time in AAA most likely. But I'd be fine with him being Zack's caddy this year. The thing he needs is AB's versus quality pitching. A utility role this year seems just the ticket to see what we've got.

    And your equation...you don't know that. You don't know who that utility backup guy would be and we certainly don't know what or who we could get in dealing one of them off.
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  4. #108
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    Re: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

    We don't know that Didi is a starting quality shortstop yet.
    Defensively, he is plus. He'd have to be an awful hitter not to be starting quality. I'm comfortable with the assumption.

    Heck, we're still not completely sure about Zack.
    Yes we are.

    The thing he needs is AB's versus quality pitching.
    Didi needs to play everyday. Sitting on the bench would slow his development, IMO.

    And your equation...you don't know that. You don't know who that utility backup guy would be and we certainly don't know what or who we could get in dealing one of them off.
    Utility backups are your Wilson Valdezes and Paul Janishes. Role players. As far as what we could get in a deal that includes Cozart or Didi, it seems obvious that player would offer more than a backup SS.

    Let's see how it plays out. I don't expect you to agree with me now.
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  5. #109
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    Re: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

    A surplus is when you have more than you can comfortably use over an extended period of 2-3 years.

    We do not have a surplus at SS.

    It's not like Cozart is a "Larkin" quality SS.

  6. #110
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    Re: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

    * If Chapman does move to the rotation (which now seems a good bet), then a starter seems expendable in a deal (possibly two if a starter comes in return in a deal).

    * A Chapman move also makes Cingrani a prime candidate for the second lefty in the bull pen (for a season)

    * While I'd rather move Leake over Bailey and Gregorious over Cozart, I would not hesitate to move Homer or Zack for the right return. Stubbs, Heisey, Ondrusek and any minor leaguer not named Hamilton, Cingrani, Corcino or Stephenson are readily available too.

    * I want two solid bats added to the lineup this offseason. A bat with some pop for left (I'm fine witrh Luddy) and a leadoff hitter for CF (Fowler, Span, Victorino, Pagan, Dejesus, Gardner, Ellsbury, Crisp, etc.).

  7. #111
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    Re: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    A surplus is when you have more than you can comfortably use over an extended period of 2-3 years.

    We do not have a surplus at SS.

    It's not like Cozart is a "Larkin" quality SS.
    Juan Perez started to impress me with his bat the second half of last year. He's not exactly knocking on the door, but he did make it to Pensacola the end of last year and may well start the year there. He's played a lot of 2B, but he's also played SS. With BP in place until 2017, it wouldn't surprise me to see them use him at SS more (especially if Cozart or Didi is dealt this offseason).

  8. #112
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    Re: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

    A surplus is when you have more than you can comfortably use over an extended period of 2-3 years.
    That's your definition. Mine is when you have more than one starting-quality players, or players who can be reasonably projected to be starting quality soon, at the same position.

    We do not have a surplus at SS.
    I think we do. Others agree -- why else would it be reported nationally that Jocketty is willing to trade "a shortstop"?

    It's not like Cozart is a "Larkin" quality SS.
    Doesn't have to be to fill the position admirably. Larkin is a Hall of Famer. Cozart is a proven young starting SS who will be under control for 5 more years -- a valuable commodity.
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  9. #113
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    Re: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

    Cozart isn't young. He isn't old, but he isn't young.

  10. #114
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

    Granted you can sneak a pretty weak bat into the lineup if you are a good fielding SS. But lets not act like Cozart will surely have the bat to sustain the starting job for 5 more years. Look what happened to Stubbs over 2 years. Hitting ability has been known to be diminished after a few years in the majors.

  11. #115
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    Re: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

    Cozart is like the poor man's J.J. Hardy, and even Hardy got dealt around quite a bit. The Cozart's of the baseball world have value, but they are replaceable.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  12. #116
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    Re: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

    Quote Originally Posted by corkedbat View Post
    * While I'd rather move Leake over Bailey and Gregorious over Cozart, I would not hesitate to move Homer or Zack for the right return. Stubbs, Heisey, Ondrusek and any minor leaguer not named Hamilton, Cingrani, Corcino or Stephenson are readily available too.
    None of those guys are off limits as far as I am concerned. You have to give quality to get quality. No one is going to trade the Reds a legit contributor for a package of fringe prospects and guys at the bottom on of the MLB roster. If you want to get a big-time contributor, you are going to have to give up quality in return. I'd be stoked if the Reds gave up some of those prospect to land another Latos-caliber player. The Reds gave up three recent first-round draft picks to land Latos and I couldn't be happier.
    Last edited by Steve4192; 11-11-2012 at 10:48 PM.

  13. #117
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    Re: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

    Geez. I thought Cozart did pretty well for a rookie SS. I know he needs to improve, but geez. Tough crowd. Tough crowd.
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  14. #118
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    Re: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Geez. I thought Cozart did pretty well for a rookie SS. I know he needs to improve, but geez. Tough crowd. Tough crowd.
    That is the thing though, he is already at an age where guys usually don't really improve.

  15. #119
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    Re: What would it take to get Justin Upton?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    That is the thing though, he is already at an age where guys usually don't really improve.
    What do you make of Cozarts 2.7 WAR last year Doug? That seems a bit high to me. (For a guy with a .288 obp)

  16. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I spent close to a decade hoping the Reds would go after Dave Martinez. And you're right, Parra's a similar player.
    So you were really happy in 1992?

    Of course he had a down year that year.
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