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Thread: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

  1. #16
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    2 first place votes for Yadier. What were those votes based on: the lower BA? the fewer HR's and RBI? the lack of a ring?
    Epically amazing defense maybe? By no means should Molina been the MVP. Posey deserved it. However, to overlook how Molina changes the game on defense is missing the mark in my opinion. I find it odd how some who have argued Trout being MVP in other threads on here for being a complete player now have a different opinion or want to minimize what Yadi did on both offense and defense. I know he's a Cardinal but objectivity is the best medicine in this discussion.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  3. #17
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

    It hurts me to say this, but I think you probably could make a solid argument that Molina could have been the MVP.

    I am going to go shower for an hour and a half now. I feel dirty.

  4. #18
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It hurts me to say this, but I think you probably could make a solid argument that Molina could have been the MVP.

    I am going to go shower for an hour and a half now. I feel dirty.
    I think the only feather Molina has in his cap over Posey is that Posey started 32 games at positions other than catcher where as Molina played catcher the whole year. Other than that, I can't think of any legit argument to say he had a better year than Posey. Posey having the best OPS+ in the league really puts him above everyone else in the NL.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  5. #19
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    Re: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It hurts me to say this, but I think you probably could make a solid argument that Molina could have been the MVP.

    I am going to go shower for an hour and a half now. I feel dirty.

    But he clearly wasn't the best player?

    He had only the 6th best WAR in the NL.

  6. #20
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    But he clearly wasn't the best player?

    He had only the 6th best WAR in the NL.
    WAR has nothing to do with it. I don't believe the NL had a "clear" best player this year. It had a rather large group of guys in the same range.

    Mike, Posey spending time at first base and Molina being quite a bit better as a defender is the argument I would make that would draw the two together.

  7. #21
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    But he clearly wasn't the best player?

    He had only the 6th best WAR in the NL.
    Even fangraphs admits that the catcher position is one of the toughest positions to calculate. This is from the Fangraphs writeup on how they evaluate WAR:

    "The other important point to make here is that you’ll notice that catchers have no values entered in the Fielding portion of their Win Values. Evaluating catcher defense is something we’re simply not very good at right now, and while there are strides being made (including a great article by Tom Tango in the 2009 Hardball Times Annual), there’s a lot of things that we haven’t figured out how to quantify yet. So, we’ve just left catchers alone, ranking them all as league average, and will let you all adjust their final win value however you’d like to reflect their defensive value relative to other catchers.

    If you think Joe Mauer‘s catching abilities and leadership are worth one win, just add one win to what we display as his win value here. Quantifying catching defense is something that we just haven’t figured out yet, and so we’re not pretending that we have. Consider it an opportunity to fill in the blanks. "

    Since fangraphs calculates it's fielding WAR based on UZR and there is no such thing as UZR for catchers, I tend to give catchers more lattitude in the WAR area (at least on fangraphs). It's simply a difficult position to see what kind of value they add to their team. That's why I find what Buster Posey did this season amazing. He lead the NL in WAR at a position that WAR has a hard time determining with full accuracy.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  8. #22
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    Re: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    WAR has nothing to do with it. I don't believe the NL had a "clear" best player this year. It had a rather large group of guys in the same range.

    Mike, Posey spending time at first base and Molina being quite a bit better as a defender is the argument I would make that would draw the two together.
    You need to outline your arguments so we can keep up with the rules for determining the best, these moving goal posts are killing my feet

  9. #23
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    You need to outline your arguments so we can keep up with the rules for determining the best, these moving goal posts are killing my feet
    Isn't that kind of evidence that determining the best player is actually very difficult and that one single metric cannot be used?
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

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  10. #24
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    You need to outline your arguments so we can keep up with the rules for determining the best, these moving goal posts are killing my feet
    I don't think I have discussed WAR as any reasoning to vote for anyone as the MVP, except when I broke down how much the Tigers and Angels each had as a team to show roughly how much each player had in terms of team WAR. I don't really use WAR that often to compare players. I think WAR is a decent guide at times, but needs to be used as a bit of a guide, then you go further into value from there.

  11. #25
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I don't think I have discussed WAR as any reasoning to vote for anyone as the MVP, except when I broke down how much the Tigers and Angels each had as a team to show roughly how much each player had in terms of team WAR. I don't really use WAR that often to compare players. I think WAR is a decent guide at times, but needs to be used as a bit of a guide, then you go further into value from there.
    That's sort of how I use WAR. I love using WAR when it comes to free agency. It's a good metric to use as to what general level of production you will get from gaining a player in a trade or free agency. However, on a micro level, I don't know if it's an effecitve tool to use. Obviously a 5 WAR player is going to be significantly better than a 1 WAR player but it's harder to tell how a 5 WAR player will be better than a 4.0 or 4.5 WAR player.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

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    Re: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

    You could convince me that Molina was extremely valuable to his team (maybe even the most valuable), but he certrainly wasn't the best player in the NL last year.

  13. #27
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    Re: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    You could convince me that Molina was extremely valuable to his team (maybe even the most valuable), but he certrainly wasn't the best player in the NL last year.
    That depends on how much emphasis you want to place on pitch framing/getting balls turned into strikes.

  14. #28
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    You could convince me that Molina was extremely valuable to his team (maybe even the most valuable), but he certrainly wasn't the best player in the NL last year.
    I agree with that. My point in this discussion is that people shouldn't minimize the season Molina had, if people want to remain objective on the matter. There is a good reason why Molina got some first place votes. That's all I'm really saying.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

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  15. #29
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Buster Posey wins NL MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    I know he's a Cardinal but objectivity is the best medicine in this discussion.
    I've seen you use the word "objective" on this board a few times now when it comes to you defending Cardinals players.

    Do you not see the irony in that?

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    I've seen you use the word "objective" on this board a few times now when it comes to you defending Cardinals players.

    Do you not see the irony in that?
    I think that I personally am being blinded from the factual greatness of everything St. Louis Cardinal related due to my own massive amount of butthurt.

    Just to speak for myself.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.


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