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Thread: The Twins make the most sense

  1. #16
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    The thing about Hamilton is, like Chapman, he's a novelty that will sell tickets.

    The entire stadium becomes electricified when Chapman goes to the mound. The same will happen when Billy reaches first base.

    Sure, they want to win it all. But second on the list is selling tickets. Hamilton will do that. No way he gets traded.
    Last edited by Vottomatic; 11-23-2012 at 02:42 PM. Reason: spelling
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

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  3. #17
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    Cincinnati Reds trade CF Billy Hamilton, C Devin Mesoraco, RHP Mike Leake, RHP Sam LeCure and RHP Daniel Corcino to the Minnesota Twins for CF Denard Span, LF Josh Willingham, IF Jamey Carroll and IF Daniel Santana.

    The Reds are in win-now mode, and as exciting a prospect as Hamilton is, what is he? A shortstop in the minors, he’s being moved to center field. He has some hitting and on-base skills, but no power, and his adjustment to major league pitching may take a couple of years. As is, he needs a year in Triple-A.

    Span gives the Reds the immediate help they need in center field and the top of the order, while fitting nicely into the Reds’ budget. Instead of re-signing Ryan Ludwick, a good bet to regress from his 2012 numbers, Willingham is brought in and Carroll gives the team a better spare infielder than the Miguel Cairo/Wilson Valdez disaster of 2012.

    As the Twins rebuild, depth is a priority. They have several good-looking hitting prospects on the way up, but little in the way of pitching. Leake and LeCure are solid back-of the-rotation arms -- which means they’re front-of-the-rotation arms for the Twins. Corcino is a decent pitching prospect who could be ready sometime in 2013. Mesoraco’s status lost some luster in 2012, and the Reds are better off sticking with Ryan Hanigan behind the plate, so he becomes Joe Mauer insurance in Minnesota.
    Seems almost like the Reds would be doing the going nowhere Twins a favor.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  4. #18
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    Here's a deal to chew on that may fit the budget:

    Didi Gregorious, Mike Leake, Devin Mesoraco, Chris Heisey and Jose Arredondo to Texas for Alexi Ogando, Mike Olt, Michael Kirkman and Konrad Schmidt.

    Olt would be the 3B of the future with Frazier becoming the answer in LF and that would settle both spots for years and provide ample RH pop. Schmidt would be the back-up catcher unless a cheap FA would be better. Ogando would close with Chapman moving into Leake's spot and there wouldn't be much drop off in the pen. That would accomplish most of what the Reds need to do and leave money to acquire a decent option in CF until Hamilton comes along and maybe a bench bat or two. Kirkman would give the Reds another lefty and a long relief option. Giving up Mes hurts, but I'd extend Hanigan for a couple more years and see if Barnhardt or Hudson comes along.

    The Rangers would use Mesoraco behind the plate and non-tender Geovanny Soto. Leake goes in the back of the rotation and they could move Didi as part of a deal where teams come sniffing around Texas for a SS (or keep him and feel more free to deal Andrus). Heisey would be insurance for Leonys Martin in CF. Arredondo provides a little experience for a young pen.

    Latos
    Cueto
    Bailey
    Arroyo
    Chapman
    Kirkman

    Ogando
    Marshall
    Hoover
    Lecure
    Simon/Masset/Ondrusek (pick 2)

    Acquisition (vs RHP)/Stubbs (vs LHP) CF
    Phillips 2B
    Votto 1B
    Frazier LF
    Bruce RF
    Olt 3B
    Cozart SS
    Hanigan/Schmidt C

    Paul OF
    Burris or other defensive minor league FA IF
    Acquisition (IF/OF)

    Rolen may be the other bench guy and would be a good choice to help Olt work his way in. I'd target David Dejesus for CF. Jeff Keppinger, Eric Hinske and Wilson Betemit would be good targets for the bench if Rolen decides to retire.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  5. #19
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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Espn posted this today...Sweetspot speculations for big trades



    Sorry...no way in heck I'm doing that deal.
    That would be a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad trade for the Reds.

    It could set us back 5 years.
    Go BLUE!!!

  6. #20
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    I simply agree the Reds wont trade Electric 1 or Electric 2. Its all in fanny in seats and players like Chappy and Sliding Billy can sell tickets winor lose. Only a handful of players
    do that and the Reds may have 2. On redszone as fans we Always try to think won first. Reality is mgmnt balances wins/what else will sell tickets-TV/cost vs revenue. I think we are lucky to have an owner who is fairly good about weighting the win element strongly as essential to the rest. In Billy and Chapman both, my opinion, nothing more (that'll get ya a cup of Joe if you come to my place)the mgmnt sees a rare coincidence of all the elements for successful franchise building in these 2 kids. And with the talent locked in around for at least a couple more years...I would agree. Find filler longer trades. If there was a way to prry Willingham though wow. Lefr
    t and cleanup would be solved.

  7. #21
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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    Wasnt sure where to post this, but The Royals are indeed shopping everyone (including Myers, Moustakas and Gordon) for young pitching. I'd be interested in all three of those guys. I wonder if Leake + one of Corcino/Cingrani would get them interested. Lorenzo Cain might be another name to watch.

    The Rockies will listen but the asking price for Fowler is "absurd.". Could come down though.

    Choo is available. James Shields has a five-player price tag which is good for the Reds. I'm not sure how many teams can offer the same kind of young pitching the Reds can.

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  8. #22
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Here's a deal to chew on that may fit the budget:

    Didi Gregorious, Mike Leake, Devin Mesoraco, Chris Heisey and Jose Arredondo to Texas for Alexi Ogando, Mike Olt, Michael Kirkman and Konrad Schmidt.

    Olt would be the 3B of the future with Frazier becoming the answer in LF and that would settle both spots for years and provide ample RH pop. Schmidt would be the back-up catcher unless a cheap FA would be better. Ogando would close with Chapman moving into Leake's spot and there wouldn't be much drop off in the pen. That would accomplish most of what the Reds need to do and leave money to acquire a decent option in CF until Hamilton comes along and maybe a bench bat or two. Kirkman would give the Reds another lefty and a long relief option. Giving up Mes hurts, but I'd extend Hanigan for a couple more years and see if Barnhardt or Hudson comes along.

    The Rangers would use Mesoraco behind the plate and non-tender Geovanny Soto. Leake goes in the back of the rotation and they could move Didi as part of a deal where teams come sniffing around Texas for a SS (or keep him and feel more free to deal Andrus). Heisey would be insurance for Leonys Martin in CF. Arredondo provides a little experience for a young pen.

    Latos
    Cueto
    Bailey
    Arroyo
    Chapman
    Kirkman

    Ogando
    Marshall
    Hoover
    Lecure
    Simon/Masset/Ondrusek (pick 2)

    Acquisition (vs RHP)/Stubbs (vs LHP) CF
    Phillips 2B
    Votto 1B
    Frazier LF
    Bruce RF
    Olt 3B
    Cozart SS
    Hanigan/Schmidt C

    Paul OF
    Burris or other defensive minor league FA IF
    Acquisition (IF/OF)

    Rolen may be the other bench guy and would be a good choice to help Olt work his way in. I'd target David Dejesus for CF. Jeff Keppinger, Eric Hinske and Wilson Betemit would be good targets for the bench if Rolen decides to retire.
    I basically see that as a trade of Mes for Olt with some other parts flying around.

    I would never do that. Both are unknown, but a possible middle order bat at catcher is worth far more than one at 3B. I don't see the need to trade Mes to fill the hole at third, and if I did, I'd want more of an established player coming back.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  9. #23
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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    Id trade DiDi for Olt. Would not trade Mez for Olt.
    Go BLUE!!!

  10. #24
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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    I think Olt may be a bit overrated. No way would I trade Didi for him. Reds have plenty of 3B options queueing up. Starting with Frazier and HRod. No way is the marginal improvement that Olt might -- might, not will -- provide over those guys worth Didi. The only kind of 3B option the Reds should even consider is a great offensive player, like Wright or Headley.
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  11. #25
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I basically see that as a trade of Mes for Olt with some other parts flying around.

    I would never do that. Both are unknown, but a possible middle order bat at catcher is worth far more than one at 3B. I don't see the need to trade Mes to fill the hole at third, and if I did, I'd want more of an established player coming back.
    Ogando would be the closer for the next few years and allow Chapman to go to the rotation. Ogando has an arm on par with Chapman, Latos and Bailey. The Reds don't have internal options like that.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  12. #26
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    I think Olt may be a bit overrated. No way would I trade Didi for him. Reds have plenty of 3B options queueing up. Starting with Frazier and HRod. No way is the marginal improvement that Olt might -- might, not will -- provide over those guys worth Didi. The only kind of 3B option the Reds should even consider is a great offensive player, like Wright or Headley.
    Olt is a significant defensive upgrade from either Frazier or H-Rod at 3B. Frazier would be free to become the every day LF. Phillips, Votto, Frazier, Bruce and Olt would lock-up the 2 - 6 spots of the order for the next several years. If Hamilton can provide the lead-off guy on top, the Reds can win with Cozart and Hanigan providing plus defense at key spots and hitting at the bottom of the order. Couple that with Latos, Cueto, Bailey and Chapman in the rotation and this team could win a couple of championships. Maybe Mes could be the bat that Olt is, but the Reds don't really have any players for OF or 3B who would provide the production that Olt will IMO. The Reds have redundancy at C and SS, they really don't have any corner power guys on the horizon.

    Don't overlook Ogando. He has a huge arm. I wouldn't do the deal without him.

    Not real high on H-Rod at this point.

    IMO, the Reds can't afford Wright or Headley, or Willingham or Ludwick for that matter.
    Last edited by mth123; 11-24-2012 at 12:17 PM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  13. #27
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Ogando would be the closer for the next few years and allow Chapman to go to the rotation. Ogando has an arm on par with Chapman, Latos and Bailey. The Reds don't have internal options like that.
    Really like Ogando, but you're giving up Leake and Didi for him as I break down the trade.

    Basically, you're giving up a solid, young affordable starter, a top SS prospect whose MLB ready, and a potential middle of the lineup up catcher, for a closer and a potential middle of the lineup 3B.

    What you're getting isn't hard to find. What you're giving up is.

    Still, I like you're thinking, just not the particulars.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  14. #28
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Really like Ogando, but you're giving up Leake and Didi for him as I break down the trade.

    Basically, you're giving up a solid, young affordable starter, a top SS prospect whose MLB ready, and a potential middle of the lineup up catcher, for a closer and a potential middle of the lineup 3B.

    What you're getting isn't hard to find. What you're giving up is.

    Still, I like you're thinking, just not the particulars.
    What is easy to find about Oganodo and Olt? Where else can we find them for basically the minimum in 2013?

    I think Leake is a back-end starter who is now arb eligible and Didi is a nice glove, but he's not going to be an elite player. What I'm thinking is to deal stuff we can spare (SS, Catcher, 5th starter) for stuff we don't have which is a big arm to close with and a guy to provide power from a corner position and doing it without taking on any salary which will allow the team to pursue an option in CF.

    The problem with this deal is that Texas probably wouldn't do it.
    Last edited by mth123; 11-25-2012 at 01:27 AM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  15. #29
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    What is easy to find about Oganodo and Olt? Where else can we find them for basically the minimum in 2013?

    I think Leake is a back-end starter who is now arb eligible and Didi is a nice glove, but he's not going to be an elite player. What I'm thinking is to deal stuff we can spare (SS, Catcher, 5th starter) for stuff we don't have which is a big arm to close with and a guy to provide power from a corner position and doing it without taking on any salary which will allow the team to pursue an option in CF.

    The problem with this deal is that Texas probably wouldn't do it.
    We can find Olt in Mes, and he catches, Mes is far more valuable. Plus we have no idea what Olt can do.

    Ogando is a plus arm, but what the Reds really need is a closer. They are much easier to find.

    Why trade Mes when you can fill the 3B and closer hole by easily by trading Leake and Didi, or through free agency. They are really easy to fill.

    Btw, I think the Rangers would jump at a chance to get Mes and Leake.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: The Twins make the most sense

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    The Reds have redundancy at C and SS, they really don't have any corner power guys on the horizon.
    We basically have two C and SS; trading Didi and Mes leaves us woefully short at those positions . We don't need to trade, in particular, Mes to essentially fill the LF spot.


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