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Thread: Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

  1. #1
    Custodial Engineer Bob Sheed's Avatar
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    Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

    I have seen references to this in multiple places. This morning from the Enquirer, most recently.

    Basically, from what I gather, it means the Reds Front Office needs to build the roster in such a way that there can be nothing for Dusty to "mess up?"

    For example, we can't sign any speedy low OBP guys, because Dusty would bat them 1 or 2 all season. Or we have to make sure we have a definite closer, so Dusty doesn't flip-flop Chapman back to the closer role? Or we can't sign any old guys because Dusty will start them regardless of performance due to "seniority?"

    So let me get this straight... The Reds have to go out of their way to keep their manager from messing up the lineup? Is that insane, or is this more common around MLB than I think it is?
    Last edited by Bob Sheed; 11-28-2012 at 10:40 AM.
    "And why do false truths persist, getting passed down the decades as if they were fact? It comes back to the same point: People believe things that are wrong because, individually, people rarely investigate their own beliefs, particularly when what they believe makes sense intuitively. Even more so when those around them agree with them." -K.F.

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    Re: Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

    Dusty likes well defined roles, this happens in many sports, it can make the GM's job more difficult... but it can make it easier too, Walt knows exactly what Dusty wants - such as defined 8th inning men, defined closer etc. I think you could look at it as Dusty proofing, or building a team to your managers style. I think Walt is the perfect type of GM for Dusty, as he likes to go for the proven, and they both value continuity.

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    Re: Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

    We had a huge hole at the top of the order and he tried different guys. He's not Joe Maddon and never will be, like UCBrownsfan said, he likes continuity. He prefers when guys know their spot and get comfortable with what they need to do. Cozart didn't work, Stubbs didn't work, and finally Phillips was okay on the 2nd try. People just like to complain about lineups for whatever reason, we did have a huge hole at the top of our order, but every team has weaknesses. We made up for ours with pitching and defense.

    The 97 win season speaks for itself. I can't be convinced that we had a 125 win team that got messed up by the manager.

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    Re: Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

    I think he manages like a former player and does these things because the players like defined roles, set postitions, an extra day off after an injury. Dusty is there to keep the players happy and productive and by doing so keep them winning. Now, the front office has to fill the holes as I strongly suspect Dusty and Walt are on the same page about the needs.

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    Re: Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

    Jocketty and the ownership group picked Baker, so I don't think it can be called "Dusty Proofing" at all. They will simply acquire players who fit what Dusty likes to do. If you get a speedy player at the top of the order who has a high OBP, is that "Dusty Proofing"? I call that acquiring a good player.

    Let's not turn this into another "In Spite of Dusty" vs. "97 wins, BOOM" thread

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    ZCTRMTP!!!!! texasdave's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

    I think people were complaining because they were tired of seeing two outs and nobody on base when Joey Votto came up to bat. I think that is legitimate complaint. Reds' leadoff hitters threw up (I know it made me nauseous) a shiny .254 OBP in 2012. And yet the Reds had a .365 OBP hitter batting in the 8-spot simply because 'catcher hits 8th, dude'. It was ridiculous that Hanigan didn't at least get a shot at moving up in the order. What could it have possibly hurt? Where was the downside? I think it would have been much better to have a slow baserunner on when Votto came up as opposed to nobody. That is not even considering the fact that Hanigan was getting on at a pretty brisk clip and then had the pitcher, Stubbs and Cozart hitting behind him. That seems like wasted opportunities to me.
    Last edited by texasdave; 11-28-2012 at 08:18 PM.
    A summer watching a bad Reds' team, is still a pretty good summer.

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    Re: Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

    You also have to realize a big reason why Hanigans obp was so high was because he had the pitcher cozart and stubbed hitting behind him. I didn't have much of a problem with where Hanigan hit.

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    ZCTRMTP!!!!! texasdave's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysawarrior View Post
    You also have to realize a big reason why Hanigans obp was so high was because he had the pitcher cozart and stubbed hitting behind him. I didn't have much of a problem with where Hanigan hit.
    This is simply not true. If it were true then why don't all 8-hole hitters have high OBPs? Look it up. They don't.
    A summer watching a bad Reds' team, is still a pretty good summer.

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    Custodial Engineer Bob Sheed's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

    Not trying to bash Dusty here. Actually, maybe I am, I guess. Maybe just disbelief whenever I read about "Dusty-Proofing." If it isn't true, then it certainly is insulting to Dusty Baker. Yet multiple sources refer to the term as commonplace.

    Just curious if anyone had heard of another example where the lineup needs to be "protected" from the manager messing it up.

    I understand "you work with what you have."

    But the Hanigan example is one of many. I have always wondered if this happens with teams in other cities, because I don't recall it ever happening here, even with Miley, Narron, etc. e.g. "Better make sure we have the lineup locked in, so the manager doesn't have any choices. Because we all know he'll mess it up."
    "And why do false truths persist, getting passed down the decades as if they were fact? It comes back to the same point: People believe things that are wrong because, individually, people rarely investigate their own beliefs, particularly when what they believe makes sense intuitively. Even more so when those around them agree with them." -K.F.

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    Re: Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

    I don't care for Toothpick at all but I have hard time buying this theory. Why would the FO keep extending him if they felt like he was making things harder on them? It's not like he has some sort of record that would cause a ton of backlash if they let him go. Especially in the post season.

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    Re: Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by texasdave View Post
    This is simply not true. If it were true then why don't all 8-hole hitters have high OBPs? Look it up. They don't.
    I think Warrior's point was that not only did he have the pitcher behind him, but also a low OBP guy following THAT in the leadoff spot which gives you even more leeway with Hannigan.
    Sto Pro Veritate

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    ZCTRMTP!!!!! texasdave's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Girevik View Post
    I think Warrior's point was that not only did he have the pitcher behind him, but also a low OBP guy following THAT in the leadoff spot which gives you even more leeway with Hannigan.
    I understood his point. I just think it is wrong. Hanigan's lowest OBP in any of the last four years in which he has played semi-regularly is .356. So it would seem that his OBP in 2012 was not a one-time occurrence due to the OBP tsunami of suck that followed him last season. When Ryan Hanigan plays, Ryan Hanigan gets on base. Look at his career OBP of .370. Somewhere along the line one might consider it a skill, rather than a by product of where he bats in the lineup.
    A summer watching a bad Reds' team, is still a pretty good summer.

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    Re: Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

    For reference, Mesoraco had a .299 OBP in the same lineup in the 8th spot in the order

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    Moderator LexRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Proofing" the lineup??!!

    [QUOTE=Stray;2780877]People just like to complain about lineups for whatever reason,/QUOTE]

    Seems pretty simple to me. That's because it's the only part of the manager's job we can see and therefore analyze.


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