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Thread: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

  1. #16
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Voice of IH View Post
    But the rental makes you an instant contender/favorite to win the world series.
    Well we are already pretty close to that anyways. For the marginal upgrade of increasing our chances in the world series so minimally seems like it would be high, and would leave our rotation depth very thin which could this year anyways.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I really like Choo, but Leake and Cingrani is just too much for a one year rental.

    I'd roll the dice and give in to whatever salary demands Ludwick wants before that.

    There's plenty of decent LF that could be had for less..
    Another thing is according to baseball reference, he has a pending arb hearing on this year's salary, which may be quite expensive.
    I respect your view, but I was kind of startled by the reference to a "decent LF."

    We're trying to win a World Series here. Let the Pirates go for "decent" starting players.

    To read this board, you would think the primary need on the Reds is a sixth and seventh starting pitcher.

    The Reds cannot get on base. Their team OBP stinks. They do not hit righties well. They are overly right handed in their lineup. These problems plagued them in 2011 and 2012.

    Choo is a wonderful hitter who would dramatically improve these deficient areas. He has a lifetime .381 OBP. In 2058 plate appearances lifetime against RHP his OBP is .400 even. That's a .400 OBP LIFETIME against RHP.

    If the Reds could get this guy, with the possibility of re-signing him, for Cingrani and Leake, I would jump on it.

    Pitching depth is great, but can you imagine this offense with Choo hitting somewhere in front of Joey Votto? Teams would fear pitching a righty.

    And you still have Phillips and Frazier to spearhead the attack v. lefties. And maybe then you keep Stubbs to also help against lefties.

    The only question is re-signability in my mind.

  4. #18
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

    Agreed. Price is the really the only obstacle here. I think it can get done without dealing both Leake & Cingrani though. Considering it's only a one year player, the cost shouldn't be THAT great whoever the player is. Whether we can extend him or not shouldn't affect what we deal to the Indians I think. (it probably will, but it shouldn't IMO).

    Simply put, Choo is exactly what this club needs...in many, MANY facets.
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  5. #19
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    I would do that trade and I don't think I would let Mike Leake be a deal breaker.

    If you need starting depth, there are free agents available cheaply who could approximate what Mike Leake does.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
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  6. #20
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Choo is a wonderful hitter who would dramatically improve these deficient areas. He has a lifetime .381 OBP. In 2058 plate appearances lifetime against RHP his OBP is .400 even. That's a .400 OBP LIFETIME against RHP.

    If the Reds could get this guy, with the possibility of re-signing him, for Cingrani and Leake, I would jump on it.
    .

    Choo is an impact player. No doubt about it.
    If he was signed for more than 1 year, I think I would be more inclined to pull the trigger. There's the Boras factor, I don't think he will be an easy extension.

    I hear what you're saying about the 6th and 7th starter being less important, but I think the Reds are in a somewhat unique situation here with the Chapman starting experiment.. I have no qualms with trading Cingrani and other prospects, but there's a good chance we'll need Leake to win the division more than an increase in OBP in the lineup.. Honestly, Redmond and Cingrani are not ML starters at this point.

    Decent LF that could be had for less pain: Ludwick, maybe Corey Hart, heck maybe even Sorianno if his ankles are ok and the Cubs are still willing to eat payroll.. Maybe Cody Ross.. Now these guys aren't as good as Choo, but wouldn't cost Leake + Cingrani..

    I guess I'd only trade Leake for a 2-3 year affordable solution in a position of need.
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  7. #21
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    Re: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Choo is an impact player. No doubt about it.
    If he was signed for more than 1 year, I think I would be more inclined to pull the trigger. There's the Boras factor, I don't think he will be an easy extension.

    I hear what you're saying about the 6th and 7th starter being less important, but I think the Reds are in a somewhat unique situation here with the Chapman starting experiment.. I have no qualms with trading Cingrani and other prospects, but there's a good chance we'll need Leake to win the division more than an increase in OBP in the lineup.. Honestly, Redmond and Cingrani are not ML starters at this point.

    Decent LF that could be had for less pain: Ludwick, maybe Corey Hart, heck maybe even Sorianno if his ankles are ok and the Cubs are still willing to eat payroll.. Maybe Cody Ross.. Now these guys aren't as good as Choo, but wouldn't cost Leake + Cingrani..

    I guess I'd only trade Leake for a 2-3 year affordable solution in a position of need.
    I guess I don't see why Mike Leake is the only answer to pitching depth. If Leake is valuable in trades, I'd pull the trigger in a heartbeat to fill the Reds' needs on offense. And Choo would be a very big pickup.

    Not so sure how valuable Mike Leake would be sitting in the bullpen waiting for Chapman's inning limit. So Leake becomes this great starter suddenly in September?

    I'd rather trade Leake - or Cingrani, Corcino, whoever brings back the best players. And then pick up some depth starters on the market for cheap. And the Reds can always supplement their staff at the deadline in July with a rental.

    The Reds do not have that much of value to trade. This idea that Mike Leake sitting around is more important than fixing the offense is not something I can buy into.

  8. #22
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    Re: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

    I'd do Leake and Cingrani, but not add Heisey.

    Heisey, as a fourth OF/ PH/ PR, is a valuable commodity. I would be willing to add him if it's the difference between Choo and no-Choo, but I'd want a lottery ticket prospect for him. Chen Chun (the AA C) would be my target.
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  9. #23
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    Re: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

    Leake and Cingrani for a one-year rental is an overpay. Because there is almost no chance Choo would be re-signed. And to weaken the SP depth at the same time would be a terrible mistake, IMO. You simply can't assume acceptable starters will be available for the team later this offseason or at the deadline. Choo is a nice pickup for one major-league arm, not two.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  10. #24
    Lets Go 'Bird' Hunting The Voice of IH's Avatar
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    Re: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Choo is an impact player. No doubt about it.
    If he was signed for more than 1 year, I think I would be more inclined to pull the trigger. There's the Boras factor, I don't think he will be an easy extension.
    I feel like if Choo had more contract on him, he would bring an even greater value.

    Maybe I overprice Choo because I have always been a big fan of his. I sometimes turn on Sports Time Ohio up here just to watch him play. Not too mention that he is a notorious Reds killer.
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  11. #25
    Lets Go 'Bird' Hunting The Voice of IH's Avatar
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    Re: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    I'd do Leake and Cingrani, but not add Heisey.

    Heisey, as a fourth OF/ PH/ PR, is a valuable commodity. I would be willing to add him if it's the difference between Choo and no-Choo, but I'd want a lottery ticket prospect for him. Chen Chun (the AA C) would be my target.
    I happy you brought this up.

    The reason I feel that Heisey would have to be included is because the Indians need some outfield stability. Shelly Duncan, Johnny Damon, Brantley is just not cutting it for them. Heisey would be a welcomed addition.

    Going to school here in Akron, I attend and follow the Akron Aeros a tid-bit. Chen would be a good player to get as well.
    Hey Sparky! Indian Hill English teachers taught me everything I know!

  12. #26
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    Re: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    That's a .400 OBP LIFETIME against RHP.
    That's his neon number. Irresistable.

    Too bad he's a corner. But if Stubbs can re-discover his 20+ hr stroke in the 6th/7th hole, that's a formidable offense.
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  13. #27
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Not so sure how valuable Mike Leake would be sitting in the bullpen waiting for Chapman's inning limit. So Leake becomes this great starter suddenly in September?
    .
    In 2011, Leake had a nice year. Not a given he'll bounce back, but potential is there.
    The main problem is the huge dropoff from Leake to Redmond/Cingrani.
    IMO, we're going to need 6 starters this year.
    Another nice thing is that Leake is inexpensive and still has options. Gives the team a tremendous amount of flexiblity.. The team could sign a FA #6 starter, but you aren't going to get much talent if you expect the guy to potentially sit in AAA. Not to mention, it might take minimum of 2-5 million to get a respectable guy (in addition to a ML roster spot).

    I also see Leake as part of the picture beyond this year. Sure, we want to load up for 2013, but that's a lot of talent (Cingrani, Leake and others) for a one year rental of Choo. Compare to what Wash had to give up for Span. Choo is a better hitter, but has less defensive value as a corner OF, and Span was signed to an affordable contract.

    I know the board is down on Leake now (much like everyone was down on Arroyo last offseason), but he's a good bounceback candidate, and is cheap/effective.. It's just the orginal proposal is an overpay, IMO.
    Now if the Indians want to expand the deal to include Masterson (also rumored to be shopped), then Leake is on the table (I know the Reds would have to ante up more).
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  14. #28
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Voice of IH View Post
    I happy you brought this up.

    The reason I feel that Heisey would have to be included is because the Indians need some outfield stability. Shelly Duncan, Johnny Damon, Brantley is just not cutting it for them. Heisey would be a welcomed addition.
    .
    If they see Heisey as a starting player or significant contributor, then Cingrani, Heisey, and a minor prospect should be considered a good haul for a one year rental of Choo.
    If I was the tribe, the time to move Choo is now. The market will shrink at the trade deadline, IMO. Trade him now while the contender's rosters are in flux and the market is looking for OF.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  15. #29
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    Re: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    I'd do Leake and Cingrani, but not add Heisey.

    Heisey, as a fourth OF/ PH/ PR, is a valuable commodity. I would be willing to add him if it's the difference between Choo and no-Choo, but I'd want a lottery ticket prospect for him. Chen Chun (the AA C) would be my target.
    We have a different view on Heisey. The Reds need to change the hitting approach of much of its lineup. Heisey is a swing and miss hitter, low OBP, the type of right hand hitter that IMO gives the ballclub offensive issues. Terrible K/BB rate.

    Walt says that teams are often asking for Heisey. I would accomodate one of them with a trade.

    In case the Indians brass is reading, Heisey has some fine attributes as well. Good fielder, hustles every minute, very good power. Reds just need a different type IMO.
    Last edited by Kc61; 11-30-2012 at 02:02 PM.

  16. #30
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    Re: Would You Be On Board for Shin-Soo Choo?

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    In 2011, Leake had a nice year. Not a given he'll bounce back, but potential is there.
    The main problem is the huge dropoff from Leake to Redmond/Cingrani.
    IMO, we're going to need 6 starters this year.
    Another nice thing is that Leake is inexpensive and still has options. Gives the team a tremendous amount of flexiblity.. The team could sign a FA #6 starter, but you aren't going to get much talent if you expect the guy to potentially sit in AAA. Not to mention, it might take minimum of 2-5 million to get a respectable guy (in addition to a ML roster spot).

    I also see Leake as part of the picture beyond this year. Sure, we want to load up for 2013, but that's a lot of talent (Cingrani, Leake and others) for a one year rental of Choo. Compare to what Wash had to give up for Span. Choo is a better hitter, but has less defensive value as a corner OF, and Span was signed to an affordable contract.

    I know the board is down on Leake now (much like everyone was down on Arroyo last offseason), but he's a good bounceback candidate, and is cheap/effective.. It's just the orginal proposal is an overpay, IMO.
    Now if the Indians want to expand the deal to include Masterson (also rumored to be shopped), then Leake is on the table (I know the Reds would have to ante up more).
    We're talking about acquiring a starting LFer with a lifetime .400 OBP against righty pitching. A top notch left handed hitter. He would dramatically boost the Reds offense in the areas of need, LHH, OBP.

    Let me posit this. Say you could get Choo with NO guarantee beyond one year. Straight up for Mike Leake.

    Is there any question Reds should take this deal?

    Leake is potentially a solid finesse pitcher, but I think he is being wildly overrated in these discussions. Leake, Cingrani, and Heisey for Choo? I think I probably make that deal, even for one year. If Choo has a potential interest in extending? I make the deal in a heartbeat.

    And IMO, Choo is worth far more than Span. Span is a punch and judy hitter whose last three offensive years have been fair to poor. Choo is just a much, much better player.
    Last edited by Kc61; 11-30-2012 at 02:04 PM.


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