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Thread: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

  1. #16
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    Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Dusty's like a crazy uncle -- you might look at him and wonder what the hell makes him tick or how he's survived this long, but at the end of the day everyone likes having him around and he's still family.
    Great analogy.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Ironic considering just last winter, before the Latos trade, there was the ongoing joke in various forms of WJ being asleep at the switch, that Dusty is an ignoramous, and hiring Bavasi would be the end of the free world. And that from people who seem like they know what they're talking about Did I leave out the rants about Buckley's drafting weaknesses?
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    Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

    Quote Originally Posted by WMR View Post
    Dusty IS a bit of an ignoramus.

    Can't wait till they win a playoff series.
    That's funny, because I heard the same thing about Sparky and the now legendary BRM "not being able to win the big one" until they won it in 1975. True, they had won a playoff series, but folks weren't satisfied and needed the ring to prove them sponge worthy.

    I didn't understand then, and knowing a lot more than I did as a 10 year-old, I don't understand now. I guess some just prefer to be critical, even when it involves cognitive dissonance to do so.
    Last edited by traderumor; 12-01-2012 at 02:16 PM.
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    Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

    Dusty managing the Reds seems to be the source of cognitive dissonance for many folks.

  6. #20
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    Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Ironic considering just last winter, before the Latos trade, there was the ongoing joke in various forms of WJ being asleep at the switch, that Dusty is an ignoramous, and hiring Bavasi would be the end of the free world. And that from people who seem like they know what they're talking about Did I leave out the rants about Buckley's drafting weaknesses?
    I remember ragging on Jocketty there for a while. In retrospect, he pretty much shifted the whole organizational mindset from talent accumulation to winning. Dusty and all, I'd say the team's in pretty good hands for the time being.

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    Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Ironic considering just last winter, before the Latos trade, there was the ongoing joke in various forms of WJ being asleep at the switch, that Dusty is an ignoramous, and hiring Bavasi would be the end of the free world. And that from people who seem like they know what they're talking about Did I leave out the rants about Buckley's drafting weaknesses?
    Considering that prior to last winter Jocketty hadn't made any significant successful moves for several years the "asleep at the switch" analogy was spot on. Maybe he was just waiting for the right time to strike. But to say Jocketty built the club was way off. Prior to last year the only true feather in his cap was the signing of Aroldis Chapman (and even that one was risky, when you take the $30 million into consideration for a middle reliever, didn't truly justify itself until 2012 when Chapman became an elite closer.) Jocketty inherited a great foundation and waited a long time until he felt the time was right to juggle some pieces and take a shot at a championship. When he finally woke up and took action his moves worked like a charm.

    Dusty is an ignoramus when it comes to lineup construction and in-game strategy. Some of the most basic tenets of modern baseball are over his head. Fortunately for the Reds Dusty's people skills are outstanding.

    Bryan Price is the unsung hero who has really put the Reds over the top in my opinion.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 12-03-2012 at 07:28 AM.

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    Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Considering that prior to last winter Jocketty hadn't made any significant successful moves for several years the "asleep at the switch" analogy was spot on. Maybe he was just waiting for the right time to strike. But to say Jocketty built the club was way off. Prior to last year the only true feather in his cap was the signing of Aroldis Chapman (and even that one was risky, when you take the $30 million into consideration for a middle reliever, didn't truly justify itself until 2012 when Chapman became an elite closer.) Jocketty inherited a great foundation and waited a long time until he felt the time was right to juggle some pieces and take a shot at a championship. When he finally woke up and took action his moves worked like a charm.

    Dusty is an ignoramus when it comes to lineup construction and in-game strategy. Some of the most basic tenets of modern baseball are over his head. Fortunately for the Reds Dusty's people skills are outstanding.

    Bryan Price is the unsung hero who has really put the Reds over the top in my opinion.
    Jocketty hired Price in 2009. Jocketty also didn't trade the farm for the rental of Cliff Lee or others, which allowed for the later acquisition of Latos.

    Many moves are made possible by previous moves and non-moves. Everything cannot be viewed purely at that moment.

    To say that he was asleep at the switch is embarrassing. It is obvious that he would've made moves if they were there at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post

    To say that he was asleep at the switch is embarrassing. It is obvious that he would've made moves if they were there at the time.
    This. It isn't fantasy baseball. It's real easy for us to say " let's trade this guy for this guy" it's another thing to actually do it. There are a lot of moving pieces to that job and it's more than any of us can realize.



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    Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Considering that prior to last winter Jocketty hadn't made any significant successful moves for several years the "asleep at the switch" analogy was spot on. Maybe he was just waiting for the right time to strike. But to say Jocketty built the club was way off. Prior to last year the only true feather in his cap was the signing of Aroldis Chapman (and even that one was risky, when you take the $30 million into consideration for a middle reliever, didn't truly justify itself until 2012 when Chapman became an elite closer.) Jocketty inherited a great foundation and waited a long time until he felt the time was right to juggle some pieces and take a shot at a championship. When he finally woke up and took action his moves worked like a charm.

    Dusty is an ignoramus when it comes to lineup construction and in-game strategy. Some of the most basic tenets of modern baseball are over his head. Fortunately for the Reds Dusty's people skills are outstanding.

    Bryan Price is the unsung hero who has really put the Reds over the top in my opinion.
    Yet, they've just blindly stumbled their way to division crowns with 90+ win seasons for 2 of the last 3 years. I hope your evaluator for whatever job you do is more fair in their assessment of your performance.

    It's OK to think that a leader isn't doing his job the way you would do it, but to call anyone an ignoramous who clearly can manage a team (three different ones) to the playoffs, no mean feat, and to say a GM is asleep at the switch based on "no significant moves until," yet that GM has constructed a winning program, that's just plain disingenuous and reveals a level of ignorance from the one holding that opinion.
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  11. #25
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    Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Jocketty hired Price in 2009. Jocketty also didn't trade the farm for the rental of Cliff Lee or others, which allowed for the later acquisition of Latos.

    Many moves are made possible by previous moves and non-moves. Everything cannot be viewed purely at that moment.

    To say that he was asleep at the switch is embarrassing. It is obvious that he would've made moves if they were there at the time.
    If a GM does not make moves it is fair to ask if he is not making moves on purpose or if he is simply unable to get the job done. I am not a critic of Walt Jocketty right now, but I can clearly see why some people were prior to last year. He failed to improve the team for a stretch of several years in a row. If you can't see why that is a problem then you weren't paying attention. I don't buy the excuse that there were no opportunities available to him. Other teams were able to create ways to improve their teams while Jocketty was sitting on his hands. A good GM is able to find ways to improve the team on a regular basis, especially when they inherit a loaded farm system. I think Jocketty did a great job in 2012, but that followed several seasons where his performance was suspect. Hopefully he can remain active and continue to find and acquire upgrades.

  12. #26
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    Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Yet, they've just blindly stumbled their way to division crowns with 90+ win seasons for 2 of the last 3 years. I hope your evaluator for whatever job you do is more fair in their assessment of your performance.

    It's OK to think that a leader isn't doing his job the way you would do it, but to call anyone an ignoramous who clearly can manage a team (three different ones) to the playoffs, no mean feat, and to say a GM is asleep at the switch based on "no significant moves until," yet that GM has constructed a winning program, that's just plain disingenuous and reveals a level of ignorance from the one holding that opinion.
    Thanks for the personal insult. I don't think calling someone ignorant is worthy of the standards of the Old Red Guard.

    It wasn't me who started the Jocketty is asleep at the switch bandwagon. I was just pointing out that it was not an unreasonable topic after someone said it was.

    As I have said before, I think Jocketty has done a good job in the last 12 months. I also think he inherited a very strong farm system and a stellar core of young major league players. This team was bound for excellence before Jocketty took over. He did not build this team into a contender all by himself. I think most reasonable people understand that.

    If you believe Jocketty did such a great job prior to 2012 then maybe you can explain the moves he made that built this team into a winner. The key components were all here when he took over with the exception of Chapman. Prior to 2012 the acquisition of Chapman was the only unquestionably good player move he had made in several years. I can certainly see why some people saw fit to question Jocketty's job performance (or lack of performance). One good move in several years is clearly quite dubious, especially when there were some glaring holes in the lineup and plenty of trading chips available and plenty of other teams finding ways to fill their holes while Jocketty couldn't.

    Jocketty did a great job in 2012. I think most everyone agrees on that.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 12-03-2012 at 08:45 AM.

  13. #27
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    Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

    Quote Originally Posted by gilpdawg View Post
    This. It isn't fantasy baseball. It's real easy for us to say " let's trade this guy for this guy" it's another thing to actually do it. There are a lot of moving pieces to that job and it's more than any of us can realize.



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    I agree. It would have been real easy for Asleep-at-the-wheel Jocketty to ruin this team with panic driven deals. I think he's steered a great course balancing now while keeping a decent looking farm for the future. He and Cast make a good team. After decades of Marge-Lindner and a string of GMs like Jimbo and OB (giving a pass to Murray and Wayne as ok but not in synch with their owners) how can you fault what Walt has done. World Series? Well anymore that's a crapshoot and does NOT say a thing to me except a team got hot and lucky at the right time. Get to the playoffs year after year and the Series will happen. Walt' s job is build a team that gets them in it. Then its on the players 100%. Well, along with some luck/momentum whatever you want to call it. To me the division title outright is the great accomplishment. The playoffs and Series are high drama and ultimate pinnacle but its like a dessert after the main meal. Extended playoffs dilutes the real value of the results to most serious baseball-holics. We want it, crave it, curse the chase all the while knowing the pure meaning of the best vs the best began being diluted in 1969. Even the single tier system was pure enough though. Now a 50/50 team can get hot and end up winning it all. So for me, Walt has done his job. Lets see if he addresses OBP at all this winter. A leadoff bridge and a cleanup answer. That would be doing his job even if the choices aren't what fans clamor for. Maybe it won't be Fowler and Willingham or a like starry combo. Maybe its a platoon mate for Stubbs and re-upping Ludwick. Whatever works. Ludwick taught me to wait for the season to unfold before screaming. But I wonder who the dickens Walt's naysayers would pick? I think maybe they just want a GM who is more exciting. More trades. More moves just to have an exciting OFFseason.

  14. #28
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    Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    If a GM does not make moves it is fair to ask if he is not making moves on purpose or if he is simply unable to get the job done. I am not a critic of Walt Jocketty right now, but I can clearly see why some people were prior to last year. He failed to improve the team for a stretch of several years in a row. If you can't see why that is a problem then you weren't paying attention. I don't buy the excuse that there were no opportunities available to him. Other teams were able to create ways to improve their teams while Jocketty was sitting on his hands. A good GM is able to find ways to improve the team on a regular basis, especially when they inherit a loaded farm system. I think Jocketty did a great job in 2012, but that followed several seasons where his performance was suspect. Hopefully he can remain active and continue to find and acquire upgrades.
    There's something to be said for sitting back and letting a good thing happen. I'm not giving him credit for inheriting a great core, but can you really argue that Jocketty hasn't played that hand extremely well? Whether he's actively improving the team or not, Jocketty seems to get the big picture better than any GM we've had in a long time.

  15. #29
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    Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Considering that prior to last winter Jocketty hadn't made any significant successful moves for several years the "asleep at the switch" analogy was spot on. Maybe he was just waiting for the right time to strike. But to say Jocketty built the club was way off. Prior to last year the only true feather in his cap was the signing of Aroldis Chapman .
    I think Rolen has to be considered a great move.

    Yep. And another thing to consider.. After the Reds won the division in 2010, there was a lot of young talent to sort out. The Reds used 2011 to sort some of that out. Now true, they possibly missed the opportunity to "sell high" on some guys, but at the same time, they didn't foolishly count on Travis Wood to be an ace going forward or make other assumptions. They kept Janish around and bought in Valdez in case Cozart fell flat on his face.

    Honestly, the slower deliberate style really paid off, as opposed to grabbing every available pitcher off possible and throwing them against the wall, hoping they'd stick.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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    Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    There's something to be said for sitting back and letting a good thing happen. I'm not giving him credit for inheriting a great core, but can you really argue that Jocketty hasn't played that hand extremely well? Whether he's actively improving the team or not, Jocketty seems to get the big picture better than any GM we've had in a long time.
    I can roll with the argument that Jocketty has done a good job because he didn't screw up a good thing. He inherited a very good situation and he didn't mess it up.

    Jocketty gets the credit because he was in charge when a long rebuilding project that was well underway when he took over finally came to fruition during his tenure.

    To me it is overly simple to claim that Jocketty is a great GM because the Reds won 97 games in 2012. You have to look a lot deeper to determine the true reasons why the team has developed so well. Jocketty is only one cog in that machine, and some other cogs were more instrumental than he.


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