For the way some people talk about the value of relievers around here, I'm surprised Wade Davis is being basically ignored. He's got an interesting profile. Big tall guy with a decent fastball, but who thrives on his curve. Came up fairly well touted, but wasn't very good as a starter. However, after a move to the bullpen he became dominant. Sound like anybody else we know?
Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.
Marshall V2.
Flabbergasted at the fleecing of Dayton Moore.
First, any deal that was on the table for 31 year old James Shields, who has logged A LOT of innings, should not have included Myers. Odorizzi and Montgomery alone get that deal done, IMO. TB has to be moving money to pay for Longoria.
Second, KC has a lot of good talent that is nearly ready. Especially pitching. They rushed several of their prospects and injured a few in the process. Just stay the course. You're small market! Act like it. LOL
Third, the only reason I can think of why the change in course is this... Dayton Moore had to have been put on notice. "You win this year or you're gone" Why would you spend all this time crafting your player development plan and then just throw it away??
Finally, if you're this serious sign Bourn TODAY! Go for it and shut us up.
Cedric 3/24/08It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
Ton of innings lately for Shields. Also making a pile o' cash. That isn't worth six years of a cost controlled player with the projected profile of Myers.
This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.
TC you're ignoring the fact they didn't touch their best pitching prospects which were NOT Odo and Montgomery or that they still have a top ten farm just similar to the Reds the best guys are now AA and lower. Lots to like on their farm and they have primo draft position this year again. They hardly sold their tomorrow for today. Is it a reach? Heck yes...but fans are furious here...I think Moore had mmarching orders from Glass who is tired of being crucified. Go for it or come close. Or else. Moore gets unfairly targeted for this mess given the total lack of resources ownership has offered him til all of the sudden NOW. Add Hochevar Holland Crow Paulino a couple I am forgetting and this should be a decent staff. The gamble is will these young hitters with immense potential but very spotty so far gel and take off?Originally Posted by Team Clark
As horrid as their rotation was in 2012, they only allowed 746 runs, but only scored 676. I guess counting on Hosmer and Moustakas to tick way up is what they'll do. Meanwhile, they obviously hope to reduce the runs scored by at least 100.
2 years ago they didn't need Greinke and sold a bit low on him with 2 years remaining. They got their CF & SS out of it. Then sold the best arm in the deal to get Shields.
2 years of Greinke (plus Bentancourt) = Lorenzo Cain, Alcides Escobar, Jeremy Jeffress and Jake Odorizzi
2 years of Shields = Wil Myers, Jake Odorizzi, Mike Montgomery, Patrick Leonard
I think Myers is a better prospect than Escobar, whose value was still very high as well, but Myers is looking great. Odorizzi cancels out in these trades. Is Montgomery's arm trouble equivalent to Jeffress' drug problems? I'd say Montgomery is still a better bet. Then Cain is/was a better get than the young 3b, as he's more ready to help in the majors. So, by my measure:
Myers > Escobar
Odorizzi = Odorizzi
Montgomery > Jeffress
Cain > Leonard
edit: oops, I've left Wade out of all this. Perhaps this evens things out then? Shields may not have Cy Young potential like Greinke had, but he's certainly got ace like qualities like consistency, innings, K's, etc.
Last edited by mdccclxix; 12-10-2012 at 12:01 PM.
I guess a lot can be said for keeping teams in the game to score late, just like the Reds have been able to do. I would hope they get some success from Hochevar in the pen, as his stuff should play up in that role.
What a horrible trade for KC
My main worry is that they couldn't do anything with an ace when they had Greinke, now they have another and what could it really do?
The feeling is the KC ownership gave Moore a win this year or you're gone directive. If so, teams are better off changing management now. When anyone is in desperation mode, they tend to make hasty decisions.
Last edited by CySeymour; 12-10-2012 at 12:44 PM. Reason: stupid auto correct :)
...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.
I want to like that KC lineup and rotation, but I think, like everyone, I will just have to wait and see before judging. The games will be played.
The 5th wildcard and teams like the A's and O's can give teams like KC a chance and some real hope. Not to mention that money tree that's growing somewhere.
Cy..I think you're right and like it was here its not mgmnt that needs to go asmuch as ownership. Glass is a "civic duty" owner, not a fan in his own right, a younger Lindner type.
As for Greinke...apples to oranges...he never had the talent approaching this teams overall ability. Then they were older and not yet bringing on these kids. Those teams were full of tired old vets and average or worse youngsters(aka Gathright et al)
Ok, but the Reds gave up four players with 6 years of control for Latos.
Granted Latos is younger, but he was somewhat more of a risk at the time.
Shields is pretty darn close to a sure thing (about as close as you're going to get).
Davis is a nice player too. Look at what some other teams have been giving up to get solid relievers. Denver just traded White (highly regarded starting pitching prospect). Reds gave up what some thought were 3 great prospects for Marshall. Red Sox gave up Lowrie for a reliever, etc, etc.
Honestly, I don't think Shields' salary matters. The Royals have been sandbagging payroll for a long time (like Lindner did). They can pay him.
The Royals have been "waiting for prospects" for about 20 years or so (maybe longer??) I don't know.. they've been irrelevant so long, I've lost track.
If I was a Royals fan, I'd be thrilled they are at least adding talent instead of dumping it to save a few dollars. Maybe they don't win the division, but they will certainly be more pleasant to watch for the next two years.
[Phil ] Castellini celebrated the team's farm system and noted the team had promising prospects who would one day be great Reds -- and then joke then they'd be ex-Reds, saying "of course we're going to lose them". #SellTheTeamBob
Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!
This got me thinking, who knows- maybe this will be the Rolen trade for KC?
A struggling franchise that most don't think is poised to contend finally does an about-face and deals a couple prospects for a proven veteran with only a year or two left on their contract...
Granted, Zach Stewart was no Wil Myers, but James Shields >> Scott Rolen.
Go BLUE!!!
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