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Thread: Los Rojos

  1. #106
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Los Rojos

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    My position is why do you have to have a jersey for every group of people? Why the heck can't you just wear the Cincinnati Reds uniform? I think it is unnecessary to have to have a jersey for every individual group.
    I agree with your last sentence. But we are not talking about every group. We are talking about one very prominent group.

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  3. #107
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Los Rojos

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    My position is why do you have to have a jersey for every group of people? Why the heck can't you just wear the Cincinnati Reds uniform? I think it is unnecessary to have to have a jersey for every individual group.
    As I've now mentioned many times, THIS is the position that I take issue with -- not your contention that the red jersey is ugly, which is certainly your right.

    I've also tried to explain many times why other people in the world might like the Los Rojos uniform -- why it is, in fact NECESSARY if the Reds want to become something more than a provincial brand and to build a fan base that has growth potential.

    It isn't that Spanish-speaking fans are unable to wear Cincinnati Reds uniforms. They can, and probably have -- some of them for many years. It's just that there is another language that is part of them, part of their culture, part of who they are. And these jerseys, in some small way, might speak to that part of them. For others, it might not. And that's their prerogative as well.

    I remain baffled as to why any of this makes you angry. To me, it is a welcome expansion of the team and the culture I love to call my own in some small way.
    Last edited by RedEye; 12-11-2012 at 12:11 AM.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  4. #108
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Los Rojos

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    I agree with your last sentence. But we are not talking about every group. We are talking about one very prominent group.
    There is huge heritage from many other countries in Major League Baseball. Not just hispanic. Do you honor one and not the others? What's fair about that? Where does it end? Wear the Cincinnati Reds uniform.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
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  5. #109
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: Los Rojos

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    There is huge heritage from many other countries in Major League Baseball. Not just hispanic. Do you honor one and not the others? What's fair about that? Where does it end? Wear the Cincinnati Reds uniform.
    Well, as of today, this is the Cincinnati Reds uniform. One of them.

    Since when does baseball have a language? It's a sport. It's played with bodies and skill and athleticism, not words -- that's one of the things that makes it universally appealing. Given that pitchers and catchers are the ones who communicate most intensely on the field, in fact, it's possible that for many MLB teams there's more Spanish spoken on the field than English.

    Also, Randy, I realize that part of your above argument is rhetorical, but the reality is that Hispanic/Latino heritage does have a disproportionate amount of influence on the game when compared with almost every other company in the world. What "huge heritage" do other countries have in MLB besides America and Japan? Would you have problems with a French jersey for the Blue Jays given that they play in Canada? And those are countries, not languages; many countries speak Spanish including this one. From a commercial standpoint, yes, it does make far more sense to market to them than to the Dutch-speaking population.
    Last edited by vaticanplum; 12-11-2012 at 12:13 AM.
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  6. #110
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Los Rojos

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    There is huge heritage from many other countries in Major League Baseball. Not just hispanic. Do you honor one and not the others? What's fair about that? Where does it end? Wear the Cincinnati Reds uniform.
    No one is claiming that there aren't other heritages in MLB. Where do you see that argument? This is happening because the Spanish-speaking population is growing fast, and the Reds are making attempts to attract them at multiple levels -- from the player and personnel level to the fan base.

    It's not about where it ends. It's about where it begins. Quite honestly, I'm sure that if there were a large enough Japanese population of Reds fans, we'd see a Japanese jersey as well. And we may still. Crass commercialism is actually quite democratic that way.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  7. #111
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Los Rojos

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    There is huge heritage from many other countries in Major League Baseball. Not just hispanic. Do you honor one and not the others? What's fair about that? Where does it end? Wear the Cincinnati Reds uniform.
    It ends based on supply and demand. Obviously the Reds aren't making a German jersey, presumably because there is not sufficient demand for it.

    The reason this one is being honored because there are a lot of Reds fans in this world whom have a different heritage that this might appeal to. It doesn't particularly appeal to me, but at the same time, I understand that there is a reason that it appeals to others, and for that reason, I am incapable of understanding why it is "unnecessary" and wish it didn't exist simply because it's not marketed to me. There are other Reds fans that are just as entitled to enjoy a jersey as much as you, and I don't really get outrage if it gets used in a game or batting practice or spring training or whatever because "it turns other people on".

    At the same time, I get what you are saying Randy, I think maybe you just aren't articulating the point the way that you intend to and it's turned a few people off (it's hard to please everyone!).

  8. #112
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Los Rojos

    Then call it what it is, Redeye, crass commercialism, and quit trying to paint people as intolerant bigots.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
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  9. #113
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Los Rojos

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    Then call it what it is, crass commercialism, and quit trying to paint people as intolerant bigots.
    The key to commercialism is demand. Los Rojos jerseys would not exist if there weren't a large number of Spanish-speaking Reds fans.
    Frankly, you seem very intolerant of that idea. Or at least of the idea that those people could have a shirt in their native language.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  10. #114
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    Re: Los Rojos

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    My position is why do you have to have a jersey for every group of people? Why the heck can't you just wear the Cincinnati Reds uniform? I think it is unnecessary to have to have a jersey for every individual group.
    You're right. It is unnecessary. Utterly, completely, totally unnecessary.

    Nobody can disagree with you on that.

    I think the problem, as it seems to have developed this evening, is that you're taking something that is objectively unnecessary to the enterprise of playing baseball, and giving the impression that it is a gross misstep by the Reds and something that gives you cause for offense. Or, at least, annoyance.

    The fact that an hispanic-targeted jersey is unnecessary for the Reds or MLB to continue doing business is hard to argue against. The notion that this is the thing that would get one's panties in a bunch is equally hard to understand. I hope that distinction is clear.

    Now, you're still entitled to an opinion on the matter, and for what ever it's worth, I'll take you at your word that this is just an issue of aesthetic displeasure and/or over-marketing displeasure, and nothing more nefarious. But at the same time, I'll repeat something that I think is often overlooked: the first amendment gives you the right to have an opinion, but it doesn't give you the right to have other people shut up and agree with you. Free speech is a great thing, and all, but even better things are thinking before you speak and picking your fights wisely. Otherwise, you're gonna get called on it, by other people who just so happen to have the same rights.

    And this? Just doesn't seem like a fight, at all. We live in the 21st Century, we live in a multi-cultural world, the Reds put out a new jersey reflecting that. Who, honestly, gives a flying frick?

    Well, I do. But only in so far as the fact that I, too, do not care for the "los." Or "los" los. Sign me up as a chairperson if "Lose the Los" becomes A Thing....


    Rick
    Last edited by FlightRick; 12-11-2012 at 12:27 AM.

  11. #115
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Los Rojos

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    At the same time, I get what you are saying Randy, I think maybe you just aren't articulating the point the way that you intend to and it's turned a few people off (it's hard to please everyone!).
    Frankly, Patrick, and this is not directed at you, I've been "turned off" by some of the comments directed at me. I get real tired of the folks that scream bigot every chance they can, when it is totally unwarranted.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
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  12. #116
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Los Rojos

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    My position is why do you have to have a jersey for every group of people? Why the heck can't you just wear the Cincinnati Reds uniform? I think it is unnecessary to have to have a jersey for every individual group.
    I think this is where you're jumping off the rails. It's not like baseball teams only sell official jerseys. They sell almost every conceivable type of apparel and merchandise known to humans. They put their names and mascots all over the place. If they've got a nickname (e.g. the Bucs), then they'll slap that all over the place.

    Alyssa Milano has gotten obscenely wealthy selling team gear tailored for women. My wife has no interest is wearing an official jersey designed for some bulky dude. However, she'll gladly wear a team shirt that fits her properly and that has some basic feminine styling. That's not a jersey for her individual group. No one's doing it to appease her or to kowtow to the female agenda. That's apparel makers figuring out what kinds of clothes women like to wear and selling it to them.

    Same thing applies to Rojos shirts. Hispanic and non-Hispanic people in the U.S. and other countries want to drape themselves with the things. A Rojos shirt with a Chapman 54 on the back and suddenly you're borderline hip. It's not a shirt for a group of people. At most the Reds are looking to sell to to a group of people, and in this case it extends well beyond any one group. The reality is the Reds are selling it for fun and profit.

    Remember the green St. Patrick's Day shirts and caps the team used to sell? Still might for all I know. That wasn't for Irish fans. It was for people who might want some club apparel that's slightly different from the norm or slightly different from the half dozen other Reds shirts they already own.
    Last edited by M2; 12-11-2012 at 01:32 AM.
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  13. #117
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Los Rojos

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    Frankly, Patrick, and this is not directed at you, I've been "turned off" by some of the comments directed at me. I get real tired of the folks that scream bigot every chance they can, when it is totally unwarranted.
    I don't think I've been screaming at all (though tone is a difficult dial to control on message boards, even with emoticons).

    I don't know you, and I don't know what your motives are. I assume that they are noble. I've tried my level best to show you where your logic seems suspect to me.

    At every turn, you have responded to my honest questions by simply repeating the same assertion that the shirts are "unnecessary" without any real counter-evidence to back that up. The more you do it, the more intolerant you sound.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  14. #118
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Los Rojos

    We all know who to blame for this.

    The Dodgers.

    The "Los Angeles" Dodgers.

    It started over fifty years ago, and was totally unnecessary. They never should never changed from "The Angels Dodgers."
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  15. #119
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Los Rojos

    So are you telling me I have to like the jersey? I didn't like the ugly St. Patricks day uniform and I'm of Irish heritage. I like traditional home whites, road greys. That's all. If you want to read more into it, tells me everything I need to know about you. I suppose "tone" on an internet board only applies to what you want it to.
    Last edited by RANDY IN INDY; 12-11-2012 at 12:43 AM.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
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  16. #120
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Los Rojos

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Hispanic and non-Hispanic people in the U.S. and other countries want to drape themselves with the things. A Rojos shirt with a Chapman 54 on the back and suddenly you're borderline hip. It's not a shirt for a group of people. At most the Reds are looking to a group of people, and in this case it extends well beyond that. The reality is the Reds are selling it for fun and profit.
    This is all true. Good points.

    You would admit, though, that there are distinctions to be made here as well. Adding a Spanish language shirt to the mix has more potential for far different forms of fandom than the green Irish shirt. To me, the Irish shirt seems more like a pure gimmick (and I'm part Irish) than the Los Rojos, if only because it is in the same language and there is a ton of overlap between the two groups (Anglophone Irish Americans and other Anglophone Americans tend to be pretty closely affiliated with one another, at least over the past few centuries).

    The Spanish stuff, though, that's much newer and more dynamic and untested waters. Right?
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013


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