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Thread: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

  1. #751
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Choo has been known to take poor routes in the outfield.

    Expectations should be low but it would not surprise me that Bruce eventually ends up covering center and Choo returns to the corner.
    Ya. I don't think Choo is going to be a credible defensive CFer.

    Instead of hearing how defense doesn't matter in left, we'll get to hear how defensive metrics are *insert perjorative language*.

    I think Choo as a CFer is a good bet to be a 3.5-4 WAR player which means adding him makes the Reds better in a meaningful way concerning playoof and WS chances. But the leather side probably isn't going to be pretty.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  3. #752
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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Choo has been known to take poor routes in the outfield.

    Expectations should be low but it would not surprise me that Bruce eventually ends up covering center and Choo returns to the corner.
    I can't see them moving Bruce around. He's here long-term and will be the right fielder. I don't think they'll be moving him to center for a year for a marginal improvement (and I think that's what it would be -- Bruce would be a bad center fielder at this point).

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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    I can't see them moving Bruce around. He's here long-term and will be the right fielder. I don't think they'll be moving him to center for a year for a marginal improvement (and I think that's what it would be -- Bruce would be a bad center fielder at this point).
    This.

    I don't think we've seen anything out of Bruce over the last two seasons that suggests he would be an answer in CF.

    Choo is likely to play long enough in center for us to argue. He probably isn't going to be there long enough for us to get an answer. Probably mixing in Heisey as platoon partner in CF a bit and letting Choo spell Ludwick in left as a rotational thing is the best way to hide Choo's glove.

    Use a little creativity and let it be what it will be.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    A good number of us have actually seen a similar move to shifting Choo to CF.

    In the 1981 season the Reds took 31 year-old Ken Griffey Sr. and moved him from RF to CF. The reason why was they had an OF of Griffey, Dave Collins and George Foster and none of them was a pure CF. Collins had been given CF gig in 1980, but the decision was made to move Griffey over for 1981. Griffey had a reputation as a mediocre RF. DRS agrees that it was a well-earned reputation.

    But the Reds wanted to get those three bats in the lineup, so to CF Griffey went.

    And it worked like a charm. The team finished with the best record in baseball (though it got jobbed out of the playoffs thanks to some expert politicking by Peter O'Malley). And, by any measure, it was one of the better defensive clubs in the league. According to modern defensive stats, Griffey actually played CF better than he played RF.

    Obviously your results will vary with different humans, but the Reds have had success with this exact type of move in extremely similar circumstances.
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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm
    Walt Jocketty told us that he told Choo that the idea was to try him in CF in Spring Training but they're going to see how it works out

  7. #756
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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    Here's the story from The Korean Herald. Much of it seems to be from the wire service, but there's a couple of tidbits particular to the Korean market.


    http://nwww.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20121212000619
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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    A good number of us have actually seen a similar move to shifting Choo to CF.

    In the 1981 season the Reds took 31 year-old Ken Griffey Sr. and moved him from RF to CF. The reason why was they had an OF of Griffey, Dave Collins and George Foster and none of them was a pure CF. Collins had been given CF gig in 1980, but the decision was made to move Griffey over for 1981. Griffey had a reputation as a mediocre RF. DRS agrees that it was a well-earned reputation.

    But the Reds wanted to get those three bats in the lineup, so to CF Griffey went.

    And it worked like a charm. The team finished with the best record in baseball (though it got jobbed out of the playoffs thanks to some expert politicking by Peter O'Malley). And, by any measure, it was one of the better defensive clubs in the league. According to modern defensive stats, Griffey actually played CF better than he played RF.

    Obviously your results will vary with different humans, but the Reds have had success with this exact type of move in extremely similar circumstances.
    If Choo performs offensively like he's done for his career and the Reds limit him to under 840 innings like they did Sr in 1981, that would be managing him about as well as they could absent an opening in the corner.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  9. #758
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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    Here's the story from The Korean Herald. Much of it seems to be from the wire service, but there's a couple of tidbits particular to the Korean market.


    http://nwww.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20121212000619
    My favorite part of that article- thanks to Google Translate
    Choo, MLB Cincinnati Lightning Trade!

    American League Cleveland Indians guns of PS (30) was traded to the Cincinnati Reds, CBS Sports columnist Jon Heyman and portal site Yahoo bankruptcy columnist Jeff Cleveland, Cincinnati, Ohio, the Arizona Diamondbacks by three teams, including the triangular trade Choo has shuffled since the 12th twitter Choo said other emergency Cincinnati and a one-year contract believed to have first Cleveland, Choo • instead of sending it to put their cash to Cincinnati infielder Jason Donald and outfielder Drew stub Su shortstop Didi Gregory brought reliever Gregory, Tony, sent to Arizona first baseman Lars Anderson, right-hander Trevor Bauer • Brian Shaw • Matt Alford bus 3:03 traded agreed whopping nine people yeokin complex trade center fielder and toptaja sense Cincinnati and points taken Choo Cleveland pitcher wanted to understand right off the market basing on local time 20:00 Choo took place. Choo • Lightning Trade - Utilization of agent Scott Boras - Utilization and joined the Dodgers of contract after successfully finish the trade immediately Choo 2006 big league debut for the Seattle Mariners in the year 2005 , they said. moved to Cleveland, Choo This third uniform change clothes the way he jumped in the American League debut in the National League next year. Klamath blends Choo explore the long-term contract, but was rejected after the trade him, he publicly declared that Cleveland can not afford to pay the big bucks after next season to qualify to get a free agent (FA), Choo said. was chosen to get a pitcher goyukchaek attack name combines a five-tool player , fielding, baserunning triplex with Choo batter into the center of Cleveland from 2008 has become the quick feet and a strong arm, slugging, accuracy, power, and threw so far this year career batting average of .289, 83 home runs, 3 hitter who went had 373 RBIs, 85 stolen bases, 20 home runs from 2009 to 2010 for 2 consecutive years and achieve -20 steals the American League as the top outfielder grew hitter in mid-May of this year, Choo Appearances successfully has transformed toptaja hitting sense strutting like this seems to be looking for the right person to stand at the forefront of the offense that meets the tastes of Cincinnati can be traced to the post-season with a new team you want to join the big-market club in the preferred Choo is greatly attractive club to Cincinnati Cincinnati's payroll this year, but Cleveland ($ 78,430,000) $ 82,200,000 to more than 17 of the full 30 teams ranked in the affluent side is not , however, the 'masters' Dusty Baker's leadership, this year's District 1 Back to secede postseason, so teamwork like to be taking the stage for the first time in his life, the next year, Choo autumn feast, the bigger the possibility the other hand, '' Killer Cincinnati Reds fans heard the news of miracles Choo s perspective Choo expectations were furious flew from Cincinnati and inter-league game this year batting .407 (27 at-bats 11 hits) on null. 11 hits in eight or more extra-base hits were doubles. .351 career batting average against the Reds, seven homers, 16 RBIs ... was strong.
    Last edited by klw; 12-12-2012 at 03:18 PM.

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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    I can't see them moving Bruce around. He's here long-term and will be the right fielder. I don't think they'll be moving him to center for a year for a marginal improvement (and I think that's what it would be -- Bruce would be a bad center fielder at this point).
    I agree it would be best to keep Bruce in his long-term home of RF, but it all depends on how competent Choo proves to be in the end.

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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    If Choo performs offensively like he's done for his career and the Reds limit him to under 840 innings like they did Sr in 1981, that would be managing him about as well as they could absent an opening in the corner.
    The Reds didn't limit him to 840 innings in 1981, the strike did.
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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    The Reds didn't limit him to 840 innings in 1981, the strike did.
    It doesn't matter why, if Choo can be limited to below 840, it would be smart.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  13. #762
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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    The last I heard, there was a lot of debate on whether the speedy Stubbs was actually statistically an above average CFer, or if he simply looked good because he had the speed.

    With that being said, if he was at best average despite his speed, I would guess that Choo could at least match that, then the D is a push and the offense is obviously going to be an improvement. I think the D will be impacted much less than we think going in.

    I certainly don't think we will see post injury Junioresque performance out there, and anything above that we should be able to live with.
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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    Fearless Predictions (2012):

    -- Choo plays a passable CF and hits like his hair's on fire (.300/ .400/ .500) and plays his CF spot well enough for serious MVP consideration.
    -- Choo's emergence as a leadoff hitter allows Votto-- who's completely healthy and crushing the ball-- to lead the league in BA, OBP, and RBI.
    -- The addition of Choo means Phillips sees more fastballs, which allows him to turn on them. This results in a 20-homer season and his highest slugging percentage since 2007. His OBP climbs as a result as well-- over .350 for the second time in his career.

    -- DiDi Gregorius struggles to hit in Spring Training, struggles to hit early in the season, and is sent down in favor of former A, Pennington. Gregorius comes up in 2013, plays passably well, and is a career secondary SS starter-- a decent guy to have on your team if he's not too expensive. In other words, he's the epitome of meh.
    -- Speaking of meh, Drew Stubbs will K. A lot. Iinterestingly, he won't lead his team in Ks in 2012-- but he'll still K more than 190 times. As a CF, he might get some Gold Glove votes, but will continue to struggle to hit anything but mistake pitches.
    Last edited by Scrap Irony; 12-12-2012 at 03:45 PM.
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  15. #764
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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It doesn't matter why, if Choo can be limited to below 840, it would be smart.
    The 1981 Reds beg to differ. They committed to Griffey in CF and it worked. Gave him some days off vs. LH starters and used a defensive sub late in some games (Sam Mejias or Paul Householder), but he was on pace for 147 CF starts that season and 1,260 innings at that position.

    The Reds had what some modern folks would label as a bad idea and went all-in on it. It netted them one of the best lineups in the NL, one of the best defenses in the NL and the best record in baseball.

    If you think picking an arbitrary innings number reached by arbitrary means and completely not reflective of how the player was actually used when the Reds tried this before is "smart" then I'm sure no one will be dissuading you of that notion.

    Me, I'm curious to see how this dumb idea plays out.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  16. #765
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    Re: Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post

    Me, I'm curious to see how this dumb idea plays out.
    Me as well.

    Gerrymandering should be fully applied and with Choo in CF I see Xavier Paul and Heisey have having to look over their shoulders as a true CF as the option for 5th OF is not out of the question.


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