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Thread: Looking at our division

  1. #31
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveman Techie View Post
    Wow, didn't realize Albert Pujols wasn't an "impact player", or Jon Jay for that matter, or Jamie Garcia.
    He said the current team. Pujols isn't on the current team. And Jay or Garcia aren't exactly stars. Average to above average players IMO.

    That said, the Cards STILL suck and will finish 20 games out.
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  3. #32
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    He said the current team. Pujols isn't on the current team. And Jay or Garcia aren't exactly stars. Average to above average players IMO.

    That said, the Cards STILL suck and will finish 20 games out.
    I think Jay is underrated. He's not going to be a "star" but will rank high amongst CF's in offensive numbers and is a brilliant defender. You're right about Garcia. The Red Zone has more confidence in him than I do. I think he's a head case and not a mentally strong individual. I hope he proves me wrong though.
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  4. #33
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveman Techie View Post
    Wow, didn't realize Albert Pujols wasn't an "impact player", or Jon Jay for that matter, or Jamie Garcia.
    Don't forget Holiday, Wainwright, Lohse, Freese, Motte, Craig, Schumaker and Descalso. So pretty much the heart if the team from 2010-12.

    Lets face it, Jocketty is responsible for as much if not more of the 2010-2012 Cardinals than he is for the 2010-12 Reds. 2013 will be the first year when the Reds are more his team than the Csrdinas are his team.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  5. #34
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Don't forget Holiday, Wainwright, Lohse, Freese, Motte, Craig, Schumaker and Descalso. So pretty much the heart if the team from 2010-12.

    Lets face it, Jocketty is responsible for as much if not more of the 2010-2012 Cardinals than he is for the 2010-12 Reds. 2013 will be the first year when the Reds are more his team than the Csrdinas are his team.
    Holliday and Freese weren't drafted or acquired under Jocketty. Those were Mozaliak movies. Craig was drafted in 2005 and Descalso was drafted in 2007, years in which Jeff Luhnow oversaw the entire draft. 2005-2007 he was the central figure in the draft and Jocketty really had nothing to do with it. In fact, it's because the Cardinals went to the sabermetrics approach that Luhnow brought (not being associated with baseball at all and nicked named things like "the accountant"), was one of the reasons why Jocketty had conflict in the front office and eventually led to his firing.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  6. #35
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at our division

    Also, Lohse was not a Walt move. He was acquired in 2008 under Mozaliak.

    EDIT: Motte was drafted under Walt as a catcher and didn't really start pitching until 2007. Luhnow nor Walt projected him to be a pitcher at all. The common thread in this is I think you're giving too much credit to Walt for A. moves he didn't make and B. a drafting system that saw someone else head the draft. It also doesn't change the fact that Mozaliak IS responsible for rebuilding the farm system into one of the best in baseball.
    Last edited by MikeThierry; 12-17-2012 at 12:12 PM.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  7. #36
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    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    Holliday and Freese weren't drafted or acquired under Jocketty. Those were Mozaliak movies. Craig was drafted in 2005 and Descalso was drafted in 2007, years in which Jeff Luhnow oversaw the entire draft. 2005-2007 he was the central figure in the draft and Jocketty really had nothing to do with it. In fact, it's because the Cardinals went to the sabermetrics approach that Luhnow brought (not being associated with baseball at all and nicked named things like "the accountant"), was one of the reasons why Jocketty had conflict in the front office and eventually led to his firing.
    Sorry about Holiday, Lohse and Freese, you're right, I didn't actually look any of this up, lol.

    But you're argument that Jocketty was in charge, but not really in charge of the draft from 2005-2007 is absurd. Every player that Luhnow drafted was approved by Jocketty. If it happened on his watch, he's responsible. Period. And Jocketty has talked at great lengths about the value of Sabermetrics, he is not anti-Sabermetrics, nor as he ever been.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  8. #37
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    Re: Looking at our division

    I was referring mainly to the 2011 team that won the world series. I have a lot of respect for Mozaliak, and I think he has done a great job of keeping the Cardinals competitive and rebuilding their farm system. However, with that said he has placed his faith in aging vets that have injury histories. Some of those young studs he has better be ready to step in soon cause I have a feeling they are going to be needed.
    "I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road." Stephen Hawking

  9. #38
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Sorry about Holiday, Lohse and Freese, you're right, I didn't actually look any of this up, lol.

    But you're argument that Jocketty was in charge, but not really in charge of the draft from 2005-2007 is absurd. Every player that Luhnow drafted was approved by Jocketty. If it happened on his watch, he's responsible. Period. And Jocketty has talked at great lengths about the value of Sabermetrics, he is not anti-Sabermetrics, nor as he ever been.
    I never really got into him approving of sabermetrics or not. He was just angry that Luhnow, a guy who had nothing to do with baseball and a pencil pusher, was given top priority in the draft. Yes Jocketty did "approve" of those choices but it's not like he had any other options. He wasn't going to come back to ownership and say "nope, not signing any of these guys". I'm not trying to say Jocketty had no impact. He clearly was the architect of the Cardinals success since 1996. I just think you're giving him too much credit for the 2011 and 2012 teams and not giving Mozaliak enough credit. Even if you want to say that they were all Walt's teams, that doesn't mean the Cardinals are in bad hands now with Mozaliak. There's a reason why he was GM of the year two years ago.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  10. #39
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    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    I think Jay is underrated. He's not going to be a "star" but will rank high amongst CF's in offensive numbers and is a brilliant defender.
    I think Jon Jay has exceeded many peoples' expectations as a defender, including me, as he has become a reliable CF with decent (but certainly non-elite) range and a noodle arm.

    But calling him a "brilliant" defender?

    Brooks Robinson was a brilliant defender.

    I'd call Jay slightly above average as a CF.

  11. #40
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    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveman Techie View Post
    I was referring mainly to the 2011 team that won the world series. I have a lot of respect for Mozaliak, and I think he has done a great job of keeping the Cardinals competitive and rebuilding their farm system. However, with that said he has placed his faith in aging vets that have injury histories. Some of those young studs he has better be ready to step in soon cause I have a feeling they are going to be needed.
    What Mozaliak has done a good job of is getting aging veterans but on short term contracts. They aren't paying Beltran for his services for 5 or so years. It's also a situation where by getting these veterans, the Cardinals still had options. For example, when Berkman was out all last year, that allowed Craig to come up and play. When Craig was injured early, that allowed Matt Adams to play. If Beltran falters this year, that moves Craig to the outfield with Adams playing first or they could simply call up Taveras. In fact, if I were a Reds fan, I would hope Beltran stays all year because Taveras could be a game changer.

    The Cardinals needed to go through a youth movement and I think Mozaliak has done a very good job in transition. 2011 was a transition year yet they were one win away from going to the WS.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  12. #41
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I think Jon Jay has exceeded many peoples' expectations as a defender, including me, as he has become a reliable CF with decent (but certainly non-elite) range and a noodle arm.

    But calling him a "brilliant" defender?

    Brooks Robinson was a brilliant defender.

    I'd call Jay slightly above average as a CF.
    You're right about his arm but he made some amazing defensive plays last year. He didn't make an error last season (take that for what you will). You're probably right in saying that I go overboard a bit with calling him brilliant on defense. He's really good though.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

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  13. #42
    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: Looking at our division

    Calling the 2012 Cardinals "Jocketty's team" is akin to calling the 2012 Reds "Krivsky's team"...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  14. #43
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at our division

    By the way, I errored in one of my statements. I said Mozeliak was GM of the year in 2011. That is not correct. The Cardinals got Organization of the Year that year for winning the WS and the success of their minor league system. Sorry for being incorrect there.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

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    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    You're right about his arm but he made some amazing defensive plays last year.
    A fielder makes an amazing defensive play when he catches a ball at the bare edge of his range. Accordingly, a player with below average range can appear to make a sensational play simply because he's snagged a ball at the edge of his range, notwithstanding that a more rangey player may have easily caught it will quite a bit less effort.

    It's why range is a hard thing to judge. Jay isn't particuarly fast, and his decent defense is built on getting better jumps than he did earlier in his career.

  16. #45
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    A fielder makes an amazing defensive play when he catches a ball at the bare edge of his range. Accordingly, a player with below average range can appear to make a sensational play simply because he's snagged a ball at the edge of his range, notwithstanding that a more rangey player may have easily caught it will quite a bit less effort.

    It's why range is a hard thing to judge. Jay isn't particuarly fast, and his decent defense is built on getting better jumps than he did earlier in his career.
    This improvement was a reason why they were willing to get rid of Rasmus. The Cardinals just saw more "want to" with Jay than they did with Colby. Jay has worked to be a good player and he continues to work on his craft. Colby is still trying to live off of natural talent.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

    Mike Shannon


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