Turn Off Ads?
Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345
Results 61 to 66 of 66

Thread: Looking at our division

  1. #61
    2013 W.S. Champions Nathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Hamilton, Ohio
    Posts
    430

    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Exactly. Nobody can decide on anything. I'll make it easy for everybody. All the credit goes to me, all the blame goes to Chris Carpenter. See, now everybody's happy.


    I'm sure the first part of that will be disputed. The second part, not so much.
    "It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

    I'm not a man of many words. Read my posts, and you'll see what I mean.

    Some people are Optimists (They see the glass 1/2 full).
    Others are Pessimists (They see the glass 1/2 empty).
    Me, I'm a Realist. 1/2 empty IS 1/2 full.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #62
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    4,689

    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    It was not sarcasm.

    It was not usual at the time to sign young players to such a large contract buying out 3 non-FA years. They gave Pujols $100M 3 years before they had too, and still allowed PUjols to end the contract in time to cash in.

    Pujols gave up the opportunity to cash in in 3 years times, but assured himself of getting $100M of guaranteed money at a time when he could have been forced to go year to year. You have to give up some salary to get that type of insurance.

    As I said, it turned out great. But I don`t beleive that at the time it was signed, it was universally lauded as a huge bargain.
    Ok.

    But at what point were we discussing how good deals were "at the time they were made"? It's pretty obvious that we can look back at that deal as one of the best ever, no? And thus, Jocketty should be getting some serious credit for. In fact, he should be getting even more credit for the fact that he was ahead of the curve, and was able to get Pujols for such a bargain.

  4. #63
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    St. Louis, Mo
    Posts
    3,661

    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    What about signing Pujols to one of the most team friendly contracts in MLB history? Was that lucky?
    By no means am I saying Jocketty was somehow lucky putting together this team. He is still one of the best GM's in the game. The Pujols contract will probably go down as arguably the best contract in the history of the game. As Puffy said though, at the time, it was risky. Walt did a very good job of having foresight on Pujols.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

    Mike Shannon

  5. #64
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    4,689

    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    By no means am I saying Jocketty was somehow lucky putting together this team. He is still one of the best GM's in the game. The Pujols contract will probably go down as arguably the best contract in the history of the game. As Puffy said though, at the time, it was risky. Walt did a very good job of having foresight on Pujols.
    Well my post was referring to your comment as to how much credit to give Jocketty for the 2011 team regarding Pujols.... which, even if you want to somehow call him lucky for drafting Pujols, you can't call that contract luck. That was a crafty, crafty move, and it no doubt helped the Cardinals win the title in 2011.

  6. #65
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    St. Louis, Mo
    Posts
    3,661

    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Clearly, Mozaliak deserves a lot of credit and or blame for the current team.

    My point was that the Cardinals are getting worse and worse every year since Jocketty left in terms of on the field talent. They gave averaged 88 wins since Jocketty left, and really have never been a true 90+ win team, let alone a 95-100 win team they were for a nice chunk of Jocketty's regime.

    And the last two years they were one win, from many teams, from not even making the playoffs. The magic is running out.
    Or could it be that the division is getting better? If you look at their run differential last year, that was the run differential of a 90+ win team. They ran into some bad luck during the season. Thankfully for me, they found it again during the playoffs.

    As far as the "magic running out", I don't see it esp. with the amount of talent they have in the minors. In fact, I would blame part of the reason on averaging 88 wins on the fact that the minor league talent was depleted for a time. They've built that back up and you're going to see young players like Oscar Taveras, Kolten Wong, Shelby Miller, Carlos Martinez, Trevor Rosenthal, etc take the field. The Cardinals are becoming a younger team (especially around 2014). They also are getting a lot of money off the books in the next couple of years plus will be signing a TV deal in 2017ish that will probably be worth 4-5 times as much as they're getting now. What they will not be able to cover with young talent in the system they can make up for it in free agent signings. It's the formula that they've used to success in the past and will continue to use success. The bottom line is that the Cardinals aren't going away anytime soon.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

    Mike Shannon

  7. #66
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    21,076

    Re: Looking at our division

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    I was looking at the roster for the 2011 team and I would say it was about 50/50 as it pertains to Walt players vs. Moseliak players. When talking about Pujols, I have always been kind of iffy on giving Walt credit on that one. .
    Yep, that's a grey area for sure.
    Should any GM get credit for drafting anyone? I would say yes, because he put the decision makers in place. Likewise if the farm stinks, the GM shouldn't be able to blame the farm director or whoever is running the draft.


    A Reds' scout saw Brandon Phillips in a spring training game and called Wayne Kriv (Red's GM at the time), very enthusiastic about Brandon's swing.. this compelled Wayne to trade for BP. I would still give Wayne Kriv credit for that, although if one reallly wanted to split hairs, the lion share of the credit goes to the scout.

    I guess I subscribe to the model that the GM is ultimately responsible for everything. I bet you could drop Walt or the current Cardinals GM into any team and that team would be better in 3 years (barring an impossible ownership).

    Honestly, I kind of chuckle when people claim that Walt really isn't that responsible for the two playoff appearances we've had, just because Bruce/Ceuto/Votto/etc weren't signed/drafted under his watch.
    It would've been REALLY easy to screw up and trade the wrong guys. (Plenty of calls to trade Cueto, Phillips and Votto "while we can still get value for them" on this forum) He also gets credit for finding a way to keep them all under contract. Even withthe second wildcard, it's tough to make the playoffs. Any GM that can get his team to the playoffs did a great job, regardless of what he inherited.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25