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Thread: Can Walt do no wrong?

  1. #16
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Forget the "Walt can do no wrong" remark Doug. I'm interested how you would evaluate his tenure here on an overall basis. You loved the Latos deal, hated the Rolen deal...just looking for your general view of things.
    He has been a good GM. I think most GM's could have come into the situation he did and done well. The farm system was stocked and the guys in place who were running the show were also in place (on the farm). Most of his moves of note are all benefit to that (the trades he made were of the plentiful farm system). I am sure that some guys would have made a better move here or there or a worse one here or there. Still think he overpaid for Rolen and I will never be convinced otherwise because of how the situation in Toronto played out with Rolen forcing a trade to a specific part of the country where only one team in that part of the country could have used him and the Reds gave up a strong chip, albeit one that hasn't turned out as well as the Reds or slew of other teams to have acquired him have hoped. Still love the Latos deal beyond belief and if his arm falls off tomorrow in a strange deer hunting fishing accident from a helicopter, it was still a great move. He has steered a very strong ship in the right direction most of the time. You can't ask for much more than that. No ship captain takes a direct line from start to finish, but his line has been with a few bumps rather than a lot of bumps.

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  3. #17
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Left out of this analysis are pickups like Hoover and Simon, which were sweet moves that cost no talent, but brought talent into the organization.
    What did Juan Francisco ever do to you?

  4. #18
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf View Post
    What did Juan Francisco ever do to you?
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...rancju02.shtml
    Yawn. A steal for the Reds. Young back of the bullpen power arm for that? There is a reason he is barely mentioned after the deal. I'm glad the Reds are past the era where Francisco would be pumped up by a clueless organization as the next great thing because he can occasionally hit the ball really, really far.
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  5. #19
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...rancju02.shtml
    Yawn. A steal for the Reds. Young back of the bullpen power arm for that? There is a reason he is barely mentioned after the deal. I'm glad the Reds are past the era where Francisco would be pumped up by a clueless organization as the next great thing because he can occasionally hit the ball really, really far.
    If ever a trade analysis was premature, this is it. We'll see about Francisco and about Hoover. They both should get more playing time next season.

    I think Walt has shown expertise in building a ballclub with the Reds.

    1. Emphasizing pitching and defense to become a playoff team.
    2. Trading prospects for veterans when the team was ready to emerge.
    3. Then, recognizing certain offensive holes and filling them this off-season.

    Very methodical approach and the result is a contending team which should continue to contend for years to come.

  6. #20
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    If ever a trade analysis was premature, this is it. We'll see about Francisco and about Hoover. They both should get more playing time next season.

    I think Walt has shown expertise in building a ballclub with the Reds.

    1. Emphasizing pitching and defense to become a playoff team.
    2. Trading prospects for veterans when the team was ready to emerge.
    3. Then, recognizing certain offensive holes and filling them this off-season.

    Very methodical approach and the result is a contending team which should continue to contend for years to come.
    You are begging the question for the timing of evaluating trades. I would submit that the fairest way to evaluate a GM's deal is to look at the circumstances at the time of the trade.

    If you want to do a post mortem for the benefit of future deals, go for it. But this is a trade of an average/below average glove power hitting corner infielder struggling to get on base and make contact, a trait projected to limit his power impact as a major leaguer, for an immediate impact power reliever with closer potential. That is a smart deal by a GM, one he has made repeatedly--dealing spare parts for something he really needs.
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  7. #21
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    I heard he left the seat up in the bathroom the other day and Mrs. Jocketty was none too pleased.
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  8. #22
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    I guess if just making the playoffs is the goal, sure. He can do wrong if he fails to address glaring deficiencies which IMO he has done a few times now. This off-season I feel like he has addressed almost everything he possibly could. Though I still think it would be wise to find a Bourjos type of player as a just in case.

    Choo may or may not struggle a great deal in CF but he hasn't exactly been injury free as of late, without him we have almost no alternatives to hit leadoff. Cozart goes back to #2 and I suspect year #2 will be much tougher at the plate for him. X. Paul and Heisey might be platooning in game if that happens. Last year we had even less leadoff alternatives and most of us knew it coming in, no reason he shouldn't have known it and filled it. Before that it was a decent RHH middle of the order guy who also came a year later than it should have.

    That may seem like nitpicking the guy because he has done alot of good but I felt the same before each of those seasons so this isn't in hindsight. Perhaps right now we have a championship if those moves are made, or at least a playoff series win. There's also the eventual question if some of these extensions (BP's being the biggest one) are gonna cost us the ability to compete in the future. Who do we lose because we kept Phillips who is important but not necessarily so integral to keep for so long at such a high price?!

    Can he do wrong, sure IMO he already has.
    Last edited by Mario-Rijo; 12-23-2012 at 08:48 PM.
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  9. #23
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    You are begging the question for the timing of evaluating trades. I would submit that the fairest way to evaluate a GM's deal is to look at the circumstances at the time of the trade.

    If you want to do a post mortem for the benefit of future deals, go for it. But this is a trade of an average/below average glove power hitting corner infielder struggling to get on base and make contact, a trait projected to limit his power impact as a major leaguer, for an immediate impact power reliever with closer potential. That is a smart deal by a GM, one he has made repeatedly--dealing spare parts for something he really needs.
    LOL, it's easy to argue for a trade when neither player has a full year of major league experience and you spin the descriptions of the players to make it sound like a no-brainer in one direction.

    Francisco is a third baseman with significant power who can be effective against RHP and likely is a platoon man. He is a low OBP, good SLG man. He has been error prone, but has a very good arm and had a +3.0 UZR and an 11.6 UZR/150 last season for the Braves.

    Hoover is a hard throwing pitcher who was converted from starter to relief. His stuff is quite good and he could very well wind up in as a short reliever pitching the late innings. In 30.2 major league innings last year he averaged 9.1 Ks and 3.8 BBs per nine innings and had a very good ERA and WHIP. He has shown a tendency to throw fly balls.

    But neither your description, nor mine, means anything in judging a trade. The proof will be when the players have a meaningful number of major league appearances. Until then, all we know is a bunch of scouting reports and verbiage, which doesn't prove much IMO.

    It's a trade of a platoon player for a relief pitcher, Walt's reputation won't live or die on this deal, but I think more time is needed to evaluate it.
    Last edited by Kc61; 12-23-2012 at 09:35 PM.

  10. #24
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...rancju02.shtml
    Yawn. A steal for the Reds. Young back of the bullpen power arm for that? There is a reason he is barely mentioned after the deal. I'm glad the Reds are past the era where Francisco would be pumped up by a clueless organization as the next great thing because he can occasionally hit the ball really, really far.
    I loved the deal for the Reds, but to be fair, the jury's still out on both of them. Hoover has pitched only 30.2 innings, so I wouldn't call it a 'steal' just yet.

  11. #25
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Walt Jocketty was a special adviser and a 6 weeks from being named GM when the Reds brought on Corey Patterson. Walt was the GM when the Reds brought on Willy Taveras.
    I'll give you Taveras.. Walt inherited a team full of holes and in rebuild mode and chose to roll the dice on WTavares as a reclamation project. However, he did manage to dump him a year later. In the end, no real damage done.

    You can't blame him for Corey Patterson.. That's all on Wayne K.. Now in Wayne's defense, I don't think it was a horrible gamble.. it was like 1 year/3 million (IIRC) and the Reds were a horrible defensive team that desperately needed a defensive upgrade. So in the grand scheme of things, Wayne certainly had much worse offenses than Patterson.

    Walt deserves an A++++++++ for his tenure here as a whole. By the time he retires, he may be the best GM the Reds have had in my lifetime.

    Just think.. if someone on Redszone proposed trading Stubbs + Didi for Choo with the Indians eating the salary difference, I think that poster would be laughed at for proposing a fantasy trade. Yet, Walt made it happen. Honestly, I think bringing back Broxton and Ludwick at reasonable prices deserves praise too.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  12. #26
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    I think Doug summed things up well in his lengthy post. Obviously the Rolen deal is a lightning rod for controversy with Doug, but overall he has a fair assessment of Walt.

  13. #27
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    LOL, it's easy to argue for a trade when neither player has a full year of major league experience and you spin the descriptions of the players to make it sound like a no-brainer in one direction.

    Francisco is a third baseman with significant power who can be effective against RHP and likely is a platoon man. He is a low OBP, good SLG man. He has been error prone, but has a very good arm and had a +3.0 UZR and an 11.6 UZR/150 last season for the Braves.

    Hoover is a hard throwing pitcher who was converted from starter to relief. His stuff is quite good and he could very well wind up in as a short reliever pitching the late innings. In 30.2 major league innings last year he averaged 9.1 Ks and 3.8 BBs per nine innings and had a very good ERA and WHIP. He has shown a tendency to throw fly balls.

    But neither your description, nor mine, means anything in judging a trade. The proof will be when the players have a meaningful number of major league appearances. Until then, all we know is a bunch of scouting reports and verbiage, which doesn't prove much IMO.

    It's a trade of a platoon player for a relief pitcher, Walt's reputation won't live or die on this deal, but I think more time is needed to evaluate it.
    I think my assessment of the players is fair, not spun. You may disagree, but I think it is disrespectful to accuse another of spinning facts. And you continue to beg the question.
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  14. #28
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    I think calling Hoover an "immediate impact power reliever" is a bit much. I'd wager the Reds still easily win the division without him, so I don't see him as having been a "needed part". Just trying to keep a fair perspective.

    Yep, I'm with the jury's still out crowd, though I'm a fan of the deal so far.

  15. #29
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    I think Doug summed things up well in his lengthy post. Obviously the Rolen deal is a lightning rod for controversy with Doug, but overall he has a fair assessment of Walt.
    One thing I neglected to mention as well.... the contracts he has been able to lock up with Votto, Bruce, Phillips (to a lesser extent) and Cueto. I thought about it when I typed the original one up, but didn't add it (probably got side tracked with something). Certainly needs to be mentioned as well.

  16. #30
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Can Walt do no wrong?

    Walt has done a great job and has especially been on a hot streak the last couple years.

    Many say other GMs could have done the same and I guess that's true. But the good ones make the job look easy and his decisions and trades have been rock-solid. Lots of guys have walked into what seemed to be a no-brainer can't-lose kind of situation and screwed it up. Walt didn't.

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