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Thread: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

  1. #211
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    If all we ever do to punish the criminals who cheated the game and the fans is deny a few stars induction to the Hall of Fame then most of the worst offenders of the Steroid Era will have gotten away scot free.
    I think here is the conceptual diversion on the issue, IMO. Some consider excluding some of the players from the HOF as "punishment" or "denying" them some right they have "earned" with their performance (a part of which, is from cheating, we can speculate how much but never know until we send McFly back to steal Barry's syringes).
    No, the induction is an honor. Its totally optional.

    The argument that because we can't get Selig or the writers or the others who had a part in this, we should HONOR Clemens and Bonds (and the others...), doesn't make sense to me.

    And yes, people who played a big part in the phenomenon and the cover up will get away. But maybe someone will think twice about cheating or covering up in the future.

    People forget that the Black Sox Eight were acquitted in a court of law. The participation of several in the fix was debatable. And there was a cover-up that supposedly involved many others (yes, writers too).

    Judge Landis kicked them all out of baseball. He didn't get all the players who threw games before or after. He didn't get the writers or the owners who covered up all the cheating. By all accounts, gambling was an epidemic then much like steroids were recently (steroids may still be).
    Landis didn't get all the cheaters and he may have even banished an "innocent" or two and/or a "not totally guilty" one. But he was right.

    If all we get from the steroid cheating epidemic is Bonds and Clemens looking at the HOF from the outside in, it won't be much at all.
    But the alternative is nothing.
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  3. #212
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    You mean lack of opinion, right?
    I keep hoping when I pull up Redzone, that this thread is at the bottom of the page. One of the more uninteresting, over argued threads, I've seen.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

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  4. #213
    Oy Vey! Red in Chicago's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    I keep hoping when I pull up Redzone, that this thread is at the bottom of the page. One of the more uninteresting, over argued threads, I've seen.
    And yet, you've posted at least 4 times in the thread

  5. #214
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by Red in Chicago View Post
    And yet, you've posted at least 4 times in the thread
    If I did, it was the same statement each time.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  6. #215
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper View Post
    I think here is the conceptual diversion on the issue, IMO. Some consider excluding some of the players from the HOF as "punishment" or "denying" them some right they have "earned" with their performance (a part of which, is from cheating, we can speculate how much but never know until we send McFly back to steal Barry's syringes).
    No, the induction is an honor. Its totally optional.

    The argument that because we can't get Selig or the writers or the others who had a part in this, we should HONOR Clemens and Bonds (and the others...), doesn't make sense to me.

    And yes, people who played a big part in the phenomenon and the cover up will get away. But maybe someone will think twice about cheating or covering up in the future.

    People forget that the Black Sox Eight were acquitted in a court of law. The participation of several in the fix was debatable. And there was a cover-up that supposedly involved many others (yes, writers too).

    Judge Landis kicked them all out of baseball. He didn't get all the players who threw games before or after. He didn't get the writers or the owners who covered up all the cheating. By all accounts, gambling was an epidemic then much like steroids were recently (steroids may still be).
    Landis didn't get all the cheaters and he may have even banished an "innocent" or two and/or a "not totally guilty" one. But he was right.

    If all we get from the steroid cheating epidemic is Bonds and Clemens looking at the HOF from the outside in, it won't be much at all.
    But the alternative is nothing.
    Denying someone an honor they have otherwise earned is a punishment.

    Secondly, I was not arguing that the steroids users should be inducted in the HOF.

    My point was that the very people who are belatedly vilifying the steroids cheaters also benefited from and were complicit in the steroids scandal themselves. I was drawing attention to their hypocrisy and self-righteousness.

    If we are going to leave Bonds, Clemens and the other steroids users out of the Hall of Fame (which is OK by me), then we should also leave out the other people who also benefited from the cheating, who turned a blind eye and allowed it to continue, who could have stopped the cheating but chose not to -- folks like Bud Selig, Tony LaRussa, Walt Jocketty, Dusty Baker, Billy Beane, Joe Torre and the other managers, GMs and league officials who saw the cheating and did nothing to stop it. These people clearly gained a huge advantage over their competition due to steroid cheating but their reputations have remained largely untouched.

  7. #216
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    If I did, it was the same statement each time.
    But...why? If people want to talk about this, and you don't like it, why go into the thread? Is your purpose to make people stop talking about it because you don't find it interesting? That isn't very cool.

    In any event, I don't have a conceptual problem, still, with the players who cheated with steroids not making it into the Hall for now, or ever, for that matter. I don't have a conceptual problem, either, with "punishment", if that's what people want to call it, falling on the poster boys for the steroid use. Yes, all benefited, but its not like anyone is asking McGwire or Sosa or Bonds or Clemens to give back millions of dollars in salary they earned while using, and other than the Bonds/Clemens perjury things (which was over truthy issues), no one is trying to put them in jail.

    If the one "sanction" if you will, of that era, is that the poster boys don't get enshrined, if that's the one line that isn't crossed, so be it. Its okay with me that there is some line in the sand, even at this late date, that says that what happened was wrong.

  8. #217
    Moderator Plus Plus's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I agree. These sportswriters didn't have a problem with steroids at the time when they were writing widely-read articles that glorified these PED abusers during the height of the steroid era. The writers made a lot of money singing the praises of the cheaters back then, now they want to make more money by vilifying those same players now.

    The sportswriters should have exposed the scandal 15 years ago, but they chose to ride the wave of baseball's resurgence after the lock-outs and strikes had the game in the doldrums. All the people who are now decrying the use of performance enhancing drugs are the same people that benefited from the cheating. The Commissioner, the Hall of Fame, the owners, the media, the managers and the players (and even many fans) all knew about the cheating while it was going on and did nothing about it because they were all indirectly benefiting from it too. Now they all pretend to be outraged.

    The cheating players got away with it because they were permitted to get away with it by the watchkeepers turning a blind eye. Steroids fueled a gravy train that fed a lot of hungry mouths. Now some of those mouths are speaking out in a holier-than-thou fashion and acting as if they themselves weren't complicit in the perpetration of the crimes they now decry.
    Well said. Exactly how I feel.

    I still remember the summer of 1998 when the front page of the sports section of the Enquirer had daily updates of Sosa and McGwire (and for a while, Griffey)'s respective home run totals. It was one of the most widely covered sporting events that I can remember off hand.

    Now that the Scrooge McDuck vaults are full enough to swim through, the sportswriters are up in arms about the disrespect to the game.

    There is absolutely no way that people knew so little in 1998 that there were no accusations, and then after these players retire the evidence becomes so overwhelming that these players humongous black spots on their records that may keep some of the most dominant players ever to play the sport out of the hall of fame.
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment
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  9. #218
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Clemens before 2000

    Code:
    AREER
    1876-1999
    
    NEUTRAL WINS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    NEUTRAL LOSSES vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    GAMES STARTED >= 400
    
    ERA                             DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     N_W      N_L     RSAA      IP       GS     
    1    Lefty Grove                1.36     3.06     4.42      298       77      668   3940        457   
    2    Roger Clemens              1.30     3.04     4.34      255       68      547   3462.1      479   
    3    Greg Maddux                1.15     2.81     3.96      230       54      421   3068.2      432   
    4    Whitey Ford                1.10     2.74     3.84      214       49      321   3171        438   
    5    Walter Johnson             1.07     2.17     3.24      470      100      643   5914.2      666   
    6    Amos Rusie                 0.99     3.07     4.06      257       49      370   3769.2      427   
    7    Carl Hubbell               0.98     2.98     3.96      253       46      355   3591        431   
    8    Kid Nichols                0.94     2.95     3.89      373       88      678   5057        561   
    9    Cy Young                   0.92     2.63     3.54      533      116      813   7356        815   
    10   Bob Feller                 0.91     3.25     4.16      252       38      279   3828        484   
    11   Jim Palmer                 0.86     2.86     3.72      251       51      314   3948        521   
    12   Grover C Alexander         0.83     2.56     3.39      374       79      524   5189        599   
    13   Warren Spahn               0.81     3.08     3.89      353       37      319   5245.2      665   
    14   Tom Seaver                 0.79     2.86     3.66      312       62      404   4782.2      647   
    15   Christy Mathewson          0.78     2.13     2.91      361       64      405   4780.1      551   
    16   John Clarkson              0.73     2.81     3.54      323       71      508   4536.1      518   
    17   Tim Keefe                  0.71     2.62     3.34      346       62      377   5052.1      593   
    18   Don Drysdale               0.70     2.95     3.65      219       35      229   3432        465   
    19   Billy Pierce               0.68     3.27     3.95      221       25      224   3305        432   
    20   Ted Lyons                  0.68     3.67     4.34      284       27      286   4161.2      484
    Then after

    Code:
    CAREER
    1876-2012
    
    NEUTRAL WINS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    NEUTRAL LOSSES vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    GAMES STARTED >= 400
    
    ERA                             DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     N_W      N_L     RSAA      IP       GS     
    1    Pedro Martinez             1.52     2.93     4.45      220       60      496   2827.1      409   
    2    Lefty Grove                1.36     3.06     4.42      298       77      668   3940        457   
    3    Roger Clemens              1.26     3.12     4.38      355       93      732   4916.2      707   
    4    Whitey Ford                1.10     2.74     3.84      214       49      321   3171        438   
    5    Walter Johnson             1.07     2.17     3.24      470      100      643   5914.2      666   
    6    Randy Johnson              1.06     3.29     4.36      294       57      527   4135.1      603   
    7    Kevin Brown                1.03     3.28     4.30      218       45      304   3256.1      476   
    8    Amos Rusie                 0.99     3.07     4.06      257       49      370   3769.2      427   
    9    Carl Hubbell               0.98     2.98     3.96      253       46      355   3591        431   
    10   Tim Hudson                 0.97     3.42     4.39      184       34      271   2682.1      405   
    11   Greg Maddux                0.96     3.16     4.11      363       61      552   5008.1      740   
    12   Kid Nichols                0.94     2.95     3.89      373       88      678   5057        561   
    13   Cy Young                   0.92     2.63     3.54      533      116      813   7356        815   
    14   Bob Feller                 0.91     3.25     4.16      252       38      279   3828        484   
    15   Mike Mussina               0.88     3.68     4.56      251       27      326   3562.2      536   
    16   Jim Palmer                 0.86     2.86     3.72      251       51      314   3948        521   
    17   Grover C Alexander         0.83     2.56     3.39      374       79      524   5189        599   
    18   Warren Spahn               0.81     3.08     3.89      353       37      319   5245.2      665   
    19   Curt Schilling             0.80     3.46     4.26      220       40      346   3261        436   
    20   Tom Seaver                 0.79     2.86     3.66      312       62      404   4782.2      647   
    21   Christy Mathewson          0.78     2.13     2.91      361       64      405   4780.1      551   
    22   John Smoltz                0.76     3.33     4.09      220       46      312   3473        481   
    23   David Cone                 0.76     3.46     4.23      189       31      228   2898.2      419   
    24   Kevin Appier               0.76     3.74     4.50      176       16      225   2595.1      402   
    25   John Clarkson              0.73     2.81     3.54      323       71      508   4536.1      518   
    26   Tim Keefe                  0.71     2.62     3.34      346       62      377   5052.1      593   
    27   Andy Pettitte              0.70     3.86     4.55      224       13      232   3130.2      491   
    28   Don Drysdale               0.70     2.95     3.65      219       35      229   3432        465   
    29   Billy Pierce               0.68     3.27     3.95      221       25      224   3305        432   
    30   Ted Lyons                  0.68     3.67     4.34      284       27      286   4161.2      484   
    31   Bob Gibson                 0.67     2.91     3.59      264       55      350   3885        482   
    32   Juan Marichal              0.67     2.89     3.56      228       38      252   3506        457   
    33   Red Faber                  0.64     3.15     3.79      269       29      250   4087        484   
    34   Dave Stieb                 0.63     3.44     4.06      185       34      236   2895.1      412   
    35   Tom Glavine                0.59     3.54     4.13      294       33      305   4413.1      682   
    36   Old Hoss Radbourn          0.59     2.67     3.26      300       49      254   4535.1      503   
    37   Chuck Finley               0.58     3.85     4.43      213       19      203   3197.1      467   
    38   Red Ruffing                0.56     3.80     4.36      273       18      170   4342        536   
    39   Gaylord Perry              0.53     3.11     3.63      336       55      317   5350.1      690   
    40   Eddie Plank                0.53     2.35     2.88      311       39      278   4495.2      529   
    41   Nolan Ryan                 0.53     3.19     3.72      336       20      205   5386        773   
    42   Orel Hershiser             0.52     3.48     4.00      197       17      124   3130.1      466   
    43   Robin Roberts              0.51     3.40     3.91      296       26      220   4689        609   
    44   Will White                 0.50     2.28     2.78      234       35      189   3542.2      401   
    45   Bert Blyleven              0.50     3.31     3.81      313       53      344   4970        685   
    46   Mel Harder                 0.50     3.80     4.30      226        8      176   3425.2      433   
    47   Waite Hoyt                 0.50     3.59     4.08      235       26      187   3763        422   
    48   Eppa Rixey                 0.50     3.15     3.64      291       23      217   4494        552   
    49   Freddie Fitzsimmons        0.48     3.51     3.99      201       18      145   3225        426   
    50   Tony Mullane               0.48     3.05     3.53      289       38      241   4531.1      504
    Haha. Why did you use 2000 as the cutoff? Clemens was obviously juicing when he went to the Blue Jays in 1997.

  10. #219
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    I think this thread is a good example of an issue that everyone just isn't going to agree on. There is a ton of blame that can be spread around to players, writers, coaches, team owners, sponsors, fans, coaches, TV networks, etc etc. Everyone was complicit. OK. And there is a plethora of differing (and strongly held) opinions as the degree of rightness and wrongness of the issue.

    Not to get all U-S-A, U-S-A about it, but I think the democratic process just needs to be followed with a healthy debate and the writers (or whoever) vote their damn vote however their conscience dictates. If writers are waiting for guidelines from MLB or the HoF or whoever from it, so be it. But I don't think that will matter much. I think writers will pretty much ignore that (except for a handfull like Fay) and vote what they think.

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  11. #220
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I certainly wasn't arguing that steroid usage was acceptable.

    My point was that everyone involved with baseball is to blame for the steroids fiasco. The players bear more blame than anyone else, but the commissioner, the managers, the team owners and the media were all aware of the abuse of PEDs but they allowed it to continue and in effect encouraged it by rewarding the players who cheated. It was a league-wide systemic cancer that infected every facet of the game of baseball. Isolating a few star players and pinning a pathetically weak penalty on to them is just another way to gloss over the problem.

    Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens didn't ruin the game all by themselves. They were merely pawns in a much bigger game of chess. It just strikes me as short-sighted to single out a few stars for punishment. The biggest beneficiaries of the steroid era were Commissioner Bud Selig, the owners and the media (especially TV networks) who enjoyed the financial windfall generated by the spike in baseball's popularity during that era. They would never have done anything about PEDs if the US Congress had not forced their hand. If all we ever do to punish the criminals who cheated the game and the fans is deny a few stars induction to the Hall of Fame then most of the worst offenders of the Steroid Era will have gotten away scot free.
    I'm not sure anyone was arguing "lets punish Bonds and Clemens, that'll show 'em." However, if there any two that were most obviously users, it is them. So, if only those two got left out of the HOF that otherwise would have gotten in based on their numbers, it would be just.
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  12. #221
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    It may be a bit simplistic to judge all the administrative players here, such as the commissioner, owners, GMs, field managers guilty because they allegedly turned a blind eye for riches. This was a lot more dynamic issue than a get rich quick scheme. Sure, it was a great motivator, but then I think the players are the ones with the most to gain financially from their usage in the game. I don't think it was a conspiracy, but a failure to pay the price for doing the right thing, as far as management goes.

    It is really a stretch to start naming GMs and managers as tainted. If it was as widespread as is assume, then I'm not sure that GMs and managers had a lot of financial motivation for not whistleblowing. The GM and manager do not really have the job of "growing the business," they are trying to field a winning team by selecting the best available players. That is on the Commish, his minions in MLB, and owners.
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    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    It may be a bit simplistic to judge all the administrative players here, such as the commissioner, owners, GMs, field managers guilty because they allegedly turned a blind eye for riches. This was a lot more dynamic issue than a get rich quick scheme. Sure, it was a great motivator, but then I think the players are the ones with the most to gain financially from their usage in the game. I don't think it was a conspiracy, but a failure to pay the price for doing the right thing, as far as management goes.

    It is really a stretch to start naming GMs and managers as tainted. If it was as widespread as is assume, then I'm not sure that GMs and managers had a lot of financial motivation for not whistleblowing. The GM and manager do not really have the job of "growing the business," they are trying to field a winning team by selecting the best available players. That is on the Commish, his minions in MLB, and owners.
    For the GMs and managers it wasn't about "growing the business", it was about winning games and keeping their jobs. Managers like Tony LaRussa made their reputations and their fortunes and built their Hall of Fame resumes by managing teams that were loaded with steroid users. You can't tell me that Tony LaRussa wasn't aware that his players in Oakland and St. Louis were juicing. Jose Canseco, Mark McGwire, Jim Edmonds and the others? If LaRussa's teams had not been using steroids how many games would they have won? How many championships? Would LaRussa still be considered a HOF manager if his teams had not cheated year after year?

    Keep in mind, during the biggest part of the steroid era most of the cheating players were concentrated on just a handful of dishonest teams. The Cardinals, Athletics, Rangers and Yankees were chock full of cheaters, the Giants had one big one and so did the Cubs. All those cheating teams flourished during that time while the honest teams suffered. Teams like the Reds had nobody on steroids or comparatively little steroid usage in any case. What if the Reds' management had encouraged or allowed their players to use steroids? Would it have resulted in more wins? Probably so. The honest people got screwed while the cheaters prospered. It wasn't until the tail end of the steroid era that usage became widespread around the league. Too many players saw the cheaters thriving without any consequences, so more and more players gave in to the temptation.

    It wasn't just the players who cheated. The managers, general managers, owners, the commissioner's office and the media were all aware of it. They didn't try to stop it. They benefitted from it. They allowed it to continue and even encouraged it by rewarding the cheaters financially. The media and the commissioner's office actively buried the story for a decade. Even now only a few of the players and none of the coaches and executives have taken heat over their cheating. Baseball and the media are still protecting many other dishonest people who participated in the cheating. Punishing Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and Sosa by denying them induction into the Hall of Fame is fine with me, but let's not pretend that is a fitting end to the Steroid Era. Those players are just the fall guys -- they take the blame and all the other guilty parties get off scot free. It is just another way for MLB and the media to pull the wool over our eyes.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 01-06-2013 at 06:27 PM.

  14. #223
    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    Not to get all U-S-A, U-S-A about it, but I think the democratic process just needs to be followed with a healthy debate and the writers (or whoever) vote their damn vote however their conscience dictates. If writers are waiting for guidelines from MLB or the HoF or whoever from it, so be it. But I don't think that will matter much. I think writers will pretty much ignore that (except for a handfull like Fay) and vote what they think.
    Usually I would want the voters to be writers who covered the athletes during their careers, but in this case I would prefer if the voting was handled by a group of writers who were not present during the height of the Steroid Era. I think those writers who covered baseball during the Steroid Era--but did little to uncover it--have lost the pivilege to vote...
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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post

    Keep in mind, during the biggest part of the steroid era most of the cheating players were concentrated on just a handful of dishonest teams. The Cardinals, Athletics, Rangers and Yankees were chock full of cheaters, the Giants had one big one and so did the Cubs. All those cheating teams flourished during that time while the honest teams suffered. Teams like the Reds had nobody on steroids or comparatively little steroid usage in any case. What if the Reds' management had encouraged or allowed their players to use steroids? Would it have resulted in more wins? Probably so. The honest people got screwed while the cheaters prospered. It wasn't until the tail end of the steroid era that usage became widespread around the league. Too many players saw the cheaters thriving without any consequences, so more and more players gave in to the temptation.
    I don't know if we can be confident that the Reds or any other team had few if any PEDS users during the steroids era. That said, the above post does express what was so wrong about the era: The honest people got screwed while the cheaters prospered.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  16. #225
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    We're crazy to think the PED era is over. Ryan Braun (I don't care that he got off on a technicality), Melky Cabrera, Yasmani Grandal and Bartolo Colon are a few of the guys that have been busted in just the last year. Also, it was only 2 years ago when Manny Ramirez, Edinson Volquez and others were busted.

    Don't forget: MLB still doesn't test for HGH, which is the new-age steroid. And I'm sure the players are doing things (taking things) we're not even aware of. Then you have guys who are flat-out still taking steroids (like Grandal and Cabrera) just because they're willing to risk getting caught and "only" miss 50 games.


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