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Thread: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

  1. #166
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...rticleid=19277

    John Perrotto:

    I truly agonized over whether to vote for players connected to PED use, like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens. I even considered abstaining from the process, like two long-time baseball-writing colleagues whom I have great respect for, John Fay of the Cincinnati Enquirer and T.J. Quinn of ESPN

    So here are the nine players who got my vote:

    Jeff Bagwell: I donít get the steroids talk now that his career is over, because he drew little or no suspicion when he played. Regardless, heís a Hall of Famer in my book and has been since the day his career ended.

    Barry Bonds: Questioning the legitimacy of his home run record is certainly fine and dandy, but he is the greatest player I have seen in my 48 years on Earth, and it was a privilege to cover him for five seasons from 1988-92 when he played for the Pirates.

    Roger Clemens: These achievements canít be misremembered: a record seven Cy Young Awards, seven ERA titles, five strikeouts titles and 11 All-Star Game appearances.

    Edgar Martinez: Iíll say it again: designated hitters are people, too, and he was the best one ever with a .312/.418/.515 triple-slash line that was as pretty as his swing.

    Rafael Palmeiro: An extremely reliable sourceówith no ties to Palmeiroótold me an off-the-record story at the Winter Meetings that convinced me that Palmeiro was indeed a clean player and was tricked into using the steroid when he thought he was taking a shot of vitamin B-12 that led to his suspension and end of his career in 2005. Unfortunately, there would be too many legal ramifications to make the story public.

    Mike Piazza: Granted, he did have a lot of acne on his back, but he was the greatest offensive catcher ever.

    Curt Schilling: Everyone knows he was one of the gameís great post-season pitchers but he was also pretty darned good in the regular season.

    Alan Trammell: This is a classic example of why players can stay on the ballot as long as 15 years if they gain at least five percent of the vote. I didnít vote for him in his first 11 years on the ballot but have changed my mind after considering he played the most difficult position on the diamond (shortstop) and won four Gold Glove and three Silver Sluggers while helping redefine the position with his offensive prowess. Raines fans, there is your hope!

    Larry Walker: The critics can say he was a Coors Field creation and too fragile, but Iíll say he had a 141 OPS+ with a triple-slash line of .313/.400/.565 in 8,030 plate appearances


    ---

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  3. #167
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    I have no problem with Barry Bonds getting in, simply because I truly believe he would have been a Hall of Fame player even if he'd never started going on 'roids. Before he got to San Fran and started juicing, he was just a hair behind Griffey for one of the absolute best players in the game. He'd never have broke the home run record or become the super beast into his late 30's that he became, but he'd have been H.O.F. material.

    I don't know what to think about Clemens, really. But as much as I have no problem with leaving borderline guys out for the obvious reasons, I don't think Bonds was ever borderline even in spite of his usage.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  4. #168
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Clemens before 2000

    Code:
    AREER
    1876-1999
    
    NEUTRAL WINS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    NEUTRAL LOSSES vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    GAMES STARTED >= 400
    
    ERA                             DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     N_W      N_L     RSAA      IP       GS     
    1    Lefty Grove                1.36     3.06     4.42      298       77      668   3940        457   
    2    Roger Clemens              1.30     3.04     4.34      255       68      547   3462.1      479   
    3    Greg Maddux                1.15     2.81     3.96      230       54      421   3068.2      432   
    4    Whitey Ford                1.10     2.74     3.84      214       49      321   3171        438   
    5    Walter Johnson             1.07     2.17     3.24      470      100      643   5914.2      666   
    6    Amos Rusie                 0.99     3.07     4.06      257       49      370   3769.2      427   
    7    Carl Hubbell               0.98     2.98     3.96      253       46      355   3591        431   
    8    Kid Nichols                0.94     2.95     3.89      373       88      678   5057        561   
    9    Cy Young                   0.92     2.63     3.54      533      116      813   7356        815   
    10   Bob Feller                 0.91     3.25     4.16      252       38      279   3828        484   
    11   Jim Palmer                 0.86     2.86     3.72      251       51      314   3948        521   
    12   Grover C Alexander         0.83     2.56     3.39      374       79      524   5189        599   
    13   Warren Spahn               0.81     3.08     3.89      353       37      319   5245.2      665   
    14   Tom Seaver                 0.79     2.86     3.66      312       62      404   4782.2      647   
    15   Christy Mathewson          0.78     2.13     2.91      361       64      405   4780.1      551   
    16   John Clarkson              0.73     2.81     3.54      323       71      508   4536.1      518   
    17   Tim Keefe                  0.71     2.62     3.34      346       62      377   5052.1      593   
    18   Don Drysdale               0.70     2.95     3.65      219       35      229   3432        465   
    19   Billy Pierce               0.68     3.27     3.95      221       25      224   3305        432   
    20   Ted Lyons                  0.68     3.67     4.34      284       27      286   4161.2      484
    Then after

    Code:
    CAREER
    1876-2012
    
    NEUTRAL WINS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    NEUTRAL LOSSES vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    GAMES STARTED >= 400
    
    ERA                             DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     N_W      N_L     RSAA      IP       GS     
    1    Pedro Martinez             1.52     2.93     4.45      220       60      496   2827.1      409   
    2    Lefty Grove                1.36     3.06     4.42      298       77      668   3940        457   
    3    Roger Clemens              1.26     3.12     4.38      355       93      732   4916.2      707   
    4    Whitey Ford                1.10     2.74     3.84      214       49      321   3171        438   
    5    Walter Johnson             1.07     2.17     3.24      470      100      643   5914.2      666   
    6    Randy Johnson              1.06     3.29     4.36      294       57      527   4135.1      603   
    7    Kevin Brown                1.03     3.28     4.30      218       45      304   3256.1      476   
    8    Amos Rusie                 0.99     3.07     4.06      257       49      370   3769.2      427   
    9    Carl Hubbell               0.98     2.98     3.96      253       46      355   3591        431   
    10   Tim Hudson                 0.97     3.42     4.39      184       34      271   2682.1      405   
    11   Greg Maddux                0.96     3.16     4.11      363       61      552   5008.1      740   
    12   Kid Nichols                0.94     2.95     3.89      373       88      678   5057        561   
    13   Cy Young                   0.92     2.63     3.54      533      116      813   7356        815   
    14   Bob Feller                 0.91     3.25     4.16      252       38      279   3828        484   
    15   Mike Mussina               0.88     3.68     4.56      251       27      326   3562.2      536   
    16   Jim Palmer                 0.86     2.86     3.72      251       51      314   3948        521   
    17   Grover C Alexander         0.83     2.56     3.39      374       79      524   5189        599   
    18   Warren Spahn               0.81     3.08     3.89      353       37      319   5245.2      665   
    19   Curt Schilling             0.80     3.46     4.26      220       40      346   3261        436   
    20   Tom Seaver                 0.79     2.86     3.66      312       62      404   4782.2      647   
    21   Christy Mathewson          0.78     2.13     2.91      361       64      405   4780.1      551   
    22   John Smoltz                0.76     3.33     4.09      220       46      312   3473        481   
    23   David Cone                 0.76     3.46     4.23      189       31      228   2898.2      419   
    24   Kevin Appier               0.76     3.74     4.50      176       16      225   2595.1      402   
    25   John Clarkson              0.73     2.81     3.54      323       71      508   4536.1      518   
    26   Tim Keefe                  0.71     2.62     3.34      346       62      377   5052.1      593   
    27   Andy Pettitte              0.70     3.86     4.55      224       13      232   3130.2      491   
    28   Don Drysdale               0.70     2.95     3.65      219       35      229   3432        465   
    29   Billy Pierce               0.68     3.27     3.95      221       25      224   3305        432   
    30   Ted Lyons                  0.68     3.67     4.34      284       27      286   4161.2      484   
    31   Bob Gibson                 0.67     2.91     3.59      264       55      350   3885        482   
    32   Juan Marichal              0.67     2.89     3.56      228       38      252   3506        457   
    33   Red Faber                  0.64     3.15     3.79      269       29      250   4087        484   
    34   Dave Stieb                 0.63     3.44     4.06      185       34      236   2895.1      412   
    35   Tom Glavine                0.59     3.54     4.13      294       33      305   4413.1      682   
    36   Old Hoss Radbourn          0.59     2.67     3.26      300       49      254   4535.1      503   
    37   Chuck Finley               0.58     3.85     4.43      213       19      203   3197.1      467   
    38   Red Ruffing                0.56     3.80     4.36      273       18      170   4342        536   
    39   Gaylord Perry              0.53     3.11     3.63      336       55      317   5350.1      690   
    40   Eddie Plank                0.53     2.35     2.88      311       39      278   4495.2      529   
    41   Nolan Ryan                 0.53     3.19     3.72      336       20      205   5386        773   
    42   Orel Hershiser             0.52     3.48     4.00      197       17      124   3130.1      466   
    43   Robin Roberts              0.51     3.40     3.91      296       26      220   4689        609   
    44   Will White                 0.50     2.28     2.78      234       35      189   3542.2      401   
    45   Bert Blyleven              0.50     3.31     3.81      313       53      344   4970        685   
    46   Mel Harder                 0.50     3.80     4.30      226        8      176   3425.2      433   
    47   Waite Hoyt                 0.50     3.59     4.08      235       26      187   3763        422   
    48   Eppa Rixey                 0.50     3.15     3.64      291       23      217   4494        552   
    49   Freddie Fitzsimmons        0.48     3.51     3.99      201       18      145   3225        426   
    50   Tony Mullane               0.48     3.05     3.53      289       38      241   4531.1      504

  5. #169
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    I have no problem with Barry Bonds getting in, simply because I truly believe he would have been a Hall of Fame player even if he'd never started going on 'roids. Before he got to San Fran and started juicing, he was just a hair behind Griffey for one of the absolute best players in the game. He'd never have broke the home run record or become the super beast into his late 30's that he became, but he'd have been H.O.F. material.

    I don't know what to think about Clemens, really. But as much as I have no problem with leaving borderline guys out for the obvious reasons, I don't think Bonds was ever borderline even in spite of his usage.
    I have a big problem with it.

    He had 2/3 of his ABs in SF, 7 years in Pittsburgh, 15 in SF. He had just started hitting his prime when he left for the West Coast. I think you can infer the beginning of his PEDs usage as sometime once he went to SF, but I think it is fair to question any of his production, not just when his head got big. I'm not saying that is what you are using to mark when he started, but I think that is the common conception, and it begs the question regarding when he did actually start. Only God and Barry know.

    I think he built his HOF credentials primarily in SF, where all of his production can be considered tainted, and therefore he should not be in the HOF. Plus, he's the poster child for the steroid scandal the same as Shoeless Joe and Pete are for gambling scandals.

    If they let Bonds in, then the steroid impact on a career should not be considered for anyone.
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  6. #170
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I have a big problem with it.

    He had 2/3 of his ABs in SF, 7 years in Pittsburgh, 15 in SF. He had just started hitting his prime when he left for the West Coast. I think you can infer the beginning of his PEDs usage as sometime once he went to SF, but I think it is fair to question any of his production, not just when his head got big. I'm not saying that is what you are using to mark when he started, but I think that is the common conception, and it begs the question regarding when he did actually start. Only God and Barry know.

    I think he built his HOF credentials primarily in SF, where all of his production can be considered tainted, and therefore he should not be in the HOF. Plus, he's the poster child for the steroid scandal the same as Shoeless Joe and Pete are for gambling scandals.

    If they let Bonds in, then the steroid impact on a career should not be considered for anyone.
    Only one major leaguer had more WAR between 1986-1992 (the Pirates years) than Bonds. His name was Roger Clemens. As a Pirate, Bonds won 2 MVP awards while finishing second in another year. He won 3 gold gloves and 3 silver slugger awards as well. In other words, as a Pirate, Bonds not only was considered the best player at his position, he was widely considered the best player in the league. What's more, this all occurred before his age 28 season.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  7. #171
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I have a big problem with it.

    He had 2/3 of his ABs in SF, 7 years in Pittsburgh, 15 in SF. He had just started hitting his prime when he left for the West Coast. I think you can infer the beginning of his PEDs usage as sometime once he went to SF, but I think it is fair to question any of his production, not just when his head got big. I'm not saying that is what you are using to mark when he started, but I think that is the common conception, and it begs the question regarding when he did actually start. Only God and Barry know.

    I think he built his HOF credentials primarily in SF, where all of his production can be considered tainted, and therefore he should not be in the HOF. Plus, he's the poster child for the steroid scandal the same as Shoeless Joe and Pete are for gambling scandals.

    If they let Bonds in, then the steroid impact on a career should not be considered for anyone.
    No one except Bonds knows for sure, but others have said that he started using after McGwire and Sosa broke the HR record on PED's. His use was a direct reaction to it. And his numbers suggest that. He actually started to decline a bit in 1999, then saw drastic improvements in 2000-04.

    From 1986-1998, Bonds had 445 HR's, 1299 RBI's and this slashline: .288/.409/559/968 163 OPS+ 3 MVP's.

    He retires after that, he's a HOF'er, imo.
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  8. #172
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    WOY, I think that 2nd Clemens chart is inaccurate, looks to be his entire career.

  9. #173
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    WOY, I think that 2nd Clemens chart is inaccurate, looks to be his entire career.
    Yes it is, here's the 2000-2012

    Code:
    CAREER
    2000-2012
    
    NEUTRAL WINS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    NEUTRAL LOSSES displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    GAMES STARTED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    ERA                             DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     N_W      N_L     RSAA      IP       GS     
    1    Pedro Martinez             1.50     3.01     4.51      110       52      248   1468        227   
    2    Johan Santana              1.20     3.20     4.40      139       78      253   2025.2      284   
    3    Roger Clemens              1.15     3.34     4.49      100       57      185   1454.1      228   
    4    Felix Hernandez            1.09     3.22     4.30      105       69      145   1620.1      238   
    5    Brandon Webb               1.08     3.27     4.35       99       50      199   1319.2      198   
    6    Roy Halladay               1.08     3.28     4.36      180      103      313   2524        357   
    7    John Smoltz                1.06     3.28     4.35       61       37      124   1058.2      125   
    8    Jered Weaver               1.05     3.24     4.29       95       59      133   1320.1      207   
    9    Adam Wainwright            1.04     3.15     4.19       80       48      112   1073        151   
    10   Randy Johnson              1.03     3.34     4.36      139       82      250   1885.1      281   
    11   Roy Oswalt                 0.96     3.28     4.24      161       98      238   2213        335   
    12   Tim Hudson                 0.93     3.43     4.36      175      113      249   2546        384   
    13   Justin Verlander           0.90     3.40     4.30      117       72      169   1553.2      232   
    14   Matt Cain                  0.89     3.27     4.17       95       68      127   1536.2      235   
    15   Curt Schilling             0.89     3.54     4.43      111       69      200   1569.1      221   
    16   C.C. Sabathia              0.88     3.50     4.38      176      117      253   2564.1      383   
    17   Cole Hamels                0.81     3.34     4.15       91       60      130   1376.2      211   
    18   Jake Peavy                 0.81     3.46     4.27      122       91      118   1800.1      282   
    19   Tim Lincecum               0.80     3.31     4.11       79       56       87   1214        188   
    20   Chris Carpenter            0.70     3.59     4.29      114       78      134   1813        271   
    21   Cliff Lee                  0.69     3.59     4.28      117       86      121   1852.2      280   
    22   Jason Schmidt              0.69     3.63     4.32       81       62       86   1260.1      197   
    23   Mike Mussina               0.68     3.87     4.54      125       96      119   1790.2      282   
    24   Greg Maddux                0.66     3.70     4.36      133      102      131   1939.2      308   
    25   Andy Pettitte              0.63     3.82     4.45      151      109      154   2086.1      333

  10. #174
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Only one major leaguer had more WAR between 1986-1992 (the Pirates years) than Bonds. His name was Roger Clemens. As a Pirate, Bonds won 2 MVP awards while finishing second in another year. He won 3 gold gloves and 3 silver slugger awards as well. In other words, as a Pirate, Bonds not only was considered the best player at his position, he was widely considered the best player in the league. What's more, this all occurred before his age 28 season.
    Which is a great start to a career, but certainly doesn't qualify him for the HOF. By that logic, Albert Belle and dozens of others were on a HOF career track. Baseball-ref similarity scores (since you threw out WAR, I'll use something dubious for evidence as well) at that age is Greg Luzinski, hardly a HOF candidate. His exalted status was accomplished in SF, with magic beans that really worked. It will really make the HOF a sham if he is voted in.
    Last edited by traderumor; 01-03-2013 at 08:50 PM.
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  11. #175
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Vote "present" like they do in Congress

  12. #176
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    I suppose a lot depends on whether a player's character is going to be considered in the HOF vote. If you're going to let Bonds and Clemens in, you might as well let Pete Rose in as well.

  13. #177
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by AmarilloRed View Post
    I suppose a lot depends on whether a player's character is going to be considered in the HOF vote. If you're going to let Bonds and Clemens in, you might as well let Pete Rose in as well.
    And on his plaque I'd like them to post Rule 21

  14. #178
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Which is a great start to a career, but certainly doesn't qualify him for the HOF. By that logic, Albert Belle and dozens of others were on a HOF career track. Baseball-ref similarity scores (since you threw out WAR, I'll use something dubious for evidence as well) at that age is Greg Luzinski, hardly a HOF candidate. His exalted status was accomplished in SF, with magic beans that really worked. It will really make the HOF a sham if he is voted in.
    Simply assuming a normal career trajectory after Pittsburgh puts him in the HOF.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  15. #179
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Simply assuming a normal career trajectory after Pittsburgh puts him in the HOF.
    Projecting him after his first four years (1986-89) had him as "good" not great. We can all play this game.

    Who knows when he started juicing? There is nothing normal about Barry Bonds' baseball career and stats. He might as well have been an alien robot.

    Canseco was on the juice since the mid-80s. This speculation that Bonds only took steroids in his later years, and that he was HOF-calibre without them, is just that - speculation. When I joined this board, a significant portion of posters were in denial of him EVER using.

    He's tainted, grimy as dirt, covered in crap. It's pointless to try to figure out what might of been, since HE HIMSELF made it impossible.

    He's a freak, a joke, an asterisk, a point so far off the curve it can only be an error. There's no projecting that and no point in trying.
    Bonds equals steroids. One doesn't exist without the other.
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  16. #180
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: John Fay Abstains from HOF Voting to Avoid Casting Votes for Bonds and Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper View Post
    Projecting him after his first four years (1986-89) had him as "good" not great. We can all play this game.

    Who knows when he started juicing? There is nothing normal about Barry Bonds' baseball career and stats. He might as well have been an alien robot.

    Canseco was on the juice since the mid-80s. This speculation that Bonds only took steroids in his later years, and that he was HOF-calibre without them, is just that - speculation. When I joined this board, a significant portion of posters were in denial of him EVER using.

    He's tainted, grimy as dirt, covered in crap. It's pointless to try to figure out what might of been, since HE HIMSELF made it impossible.

    He's a freak, a joke, an asterisk, a point so far off the curve it can only be an error. There's no projecting that and no point in trying.
    Bonds equals steroids. One doesn't exist without the other.
    Nah he's a great player

    This is really who the above statement is about



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Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

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