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Thread: Lance Armstrong

  1. #16
    First Time Caller SunDeck's Avatar
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    Re: Lance Armstrong

    I think it's just an indictment of the cycling world in general that allowed a culture to exist where cyclists felt they had to make a choice between winning and not doping. Armstrong may be the epitome of that and sure, his actions to defend himself have been reprehensible, but to me this is about sponsors, officials, coaches, promoters, doctors and everyone else responsible for encouraging athletes to alter their physical chemistry and it's not necessarily fair to put all this blame on one guy. I'm not defending him, in particular, but he didn't create the incentives or the methods to evade testing and he certainly couldn't have doped for so long without a lot of support and willingness by many people to look the other way or to live in denial.
    Next Reds manager, second shooter. --Confirmed on Redszone.

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  3. #17
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Lance Armstrong

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966 View Post
    After watching the Oprah interview I think less of Lance Armstrong. No emotion and still not answering all the questions. He is not Idi Amin or Joseph Stalin, but his attitude during that interview made me think of someone who let power get in his brain and is still not willing to tell the truth nor remorseful for the lives of others that he tarnished.

    In other words... I think he is a piece of crap. I know, I know... Livestrong is a great thing. Not sure if I will watch part 2 of the interview tonight. I think last night is all I can take of Lance Armstrong. Just go away.
    I came out of it thinking that he's someone who wants to put this behind him with at least some of his $125mill fortune intact. He wants to get the lawsuits filed, settle out of court, hopefully have a few million left over, move on

    Like you I have very little respect for him but I'm not into hero worship to begin with. I never thought he was anything more than a good bicycler and I don't rate that skill very high in society

  4. #18
    Member improbus's Avatar
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    Re: Lance Armstrong

    Quote Originally Posted by SunDeck View Post
    I think it's just an indictment of the baseball world in general that allowed a culture to exist where ballplayers felt they had to make a choice between winning and not doping. Bonds may be the epitome of that and sure, his actions to defend himself have been reprehensible, but to me this is about sponsors, officials, coaches, promoters, doctors and everyone else responsible for encouraging athletes to alter their physical chemistry and it's not necessarily fair to put all this blame on one guy. I'm not defending him, in particular, but he didn't create the incentives or the methods to evade testing and he certainly couldn't have doped for so long without a lot of support and willingness by many people to look the other way or to live in denial.
    See: MLB 1993-2007 (My changes to your quote in bold)
    Variatio delectat - Cicero

  5. #19
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Lance Armstrong

    Lance Armstrong, just another very recent superhuman athlete who was a fraud. Amazing how many athletes across the sporting world have been doing things in the last 20 years that we have never seen before. I'm afraid that this has the potential to be so much bigger.

  6. #20
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Lance Armstrong

    Here's my thing: it's really easy to sit on the sidelines and fault athletes for taking substances. Yet look at it from their perspective. They're constantly being handed nutritional supplements and given pills and needles, by their coaches/managers/nutritionists/team doctors. Then they get told this one's good, but this one's bad because it's way too effective. Then they get told every day that they better do everything in their power to win or the guy/team is going to win and someone else is going to take their spot. You want to win? You want to be the best? You want to look yourself in the mirror and say you did everything you could? Now tell me you'd say no to thing that could be the difference in winning for your team, for your family, for your country, that thing that's being offered to you by a doctor.

    EPO is bad, but you can sleep in an oxygen tent at night. Blood doping is bad, but training at high altitude is good. Testosterone supplements are bad even though we now sell them on TV. Go ahead, sort out where the line is, aside from the finish line.

    And then factor in sport of cycling, where your ride posture and pedalling motion is computer analyzed, the bike design borders on rocket science, and every day is planned out in excruciating detail right down to the time when you are going to take a crap (that's a not joke). In between stages of a major tour, riders have a veritable NASCAR pit crew working on them, fine tuning them for the next day. Nothing is left to chance. Every advantage (no matter how minute) is exploited. Every rider is taken apart, reassembled, programmed and quantified. These guys are equal part machine and human, and it's not terribly surprising they'd do whatever's necessary to make the machine perform.

    Seriously, ride up a mountain sometime. Feel the kick of a 9% grade. Try to keep yourself upright and moving forward on a switchback. Get in the saddle, put your head down and ride flat out for an hour. What these guys do is preposterously hard.

    I'd like to see the sport raced clean, but let's be honest that in some cases we're drawing arbitrary lines about the notion of using every ounce of science at your disposal except these things over there.

    Armstrong likely won a level playing field. People may not like it when he lists doping alongside pumping your tires and filling your water bottles, but that was how they were racing. The truth is what he did in surviving cancer and winning the TDF seven times is still an amazing triumph, one of the greatest sporting accomplishments ever. What he's done to help cancer victims and promote healthier living (arguably you can trace the current biking boom to Armstrong) has had immense impact.

    His sin is he's yet another example of the world being more complex than the simple narrative we so fervently desire. He competed hard. He did some great things outside of his sport. He inspired millions.

    And he was riddled with personal flaws and made enormous mistakes along the way.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  7. #21
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    Re: Lance Armstrong

    They should be asking him to come in and show how he beat at least 500 tests so they can smoke out the rest and maybe legitimately clean up the sport.
    Quote Originally Posted by moewan View Post
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  8. #22
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Lance Armstrong

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Here's my thing: it's really easy to sit on the sidelines and fault athletes for taking substances. Yet look at it from their perspective. They're constantly being handed nutritional supplements and given pills and needles, by their coaches/managers/nutritionists/team doctors. Then they get told this one's good, but this one's bad because it's way too effective. Then they get told every day that they better do everything in their power to win or the guy/team is going to win and someone else is going to take their spot. You want to win? You want to be the best? You want to look yourself in the mirror and say you did everything you could? Now tell me you'd say no to thing that could be the difference in winning for your team, for your family, for your country, that thing that's being offered to you by a doctor.

    EPO is bad, but you can sleep in an oxygen tent at night. Blood doping is bad, but training at high altitude is good. Testosterone supplements are bad even though we now sell them on TV. Go ahead, sort out where the line is, aside from the finish line.

    And then factor in sport of cycling, where your ride posture and pedalling motion is computer analyzed, the bike design borders on rocket science, and every day is planned out in excruciating detail right down to the time when you are going to take a crap (that's a not joke). In between stages of a major tour, riders have a veritable NASCAR pit crew working on them, fine tuning them for the next day. Nothing is left to chance. Every advantage (no matter how minute) is exploited. Every rider is taken apart, reassembled, programmed and quantified. These guys are equal part machine and human, and it's not terribly surprising they'd do whatever's necessary to make the machine perform.

    Seriously, ride up a mountain sometime. Feel the kick of a 9% grade. Try to keep yourself upright and moving forward on a switchback. Get in the saddle, put your head down and ride flat out for an hour. What these guys do is preposterously hard.

    I'd like to see the sport raced clean, but let's be honest that in some cases we're drawing arbitrary lines about the notion of using every ounce of science at your disposal except these things over there.

    Armstrong likely won a level playing field. People may not like it when he lists doping alongside pumping your tires and filling your water bottles, but that was how they were racing. The truth is what he did in surviving cancer and winning the TDF seven times is still an amazing triumph, one of the greatest sporting accomplishments ever. What he's done to help cancer victims and promote healthier living (arguably you can trace the current biking boom to Armstrong) has had immense impact.

    His sin is he's yet another example of the world being more complex than the simple narrative we so fervently desire. He competed hard. He did some great things outside of his sport. He inspired millions.

    And he was riddled with personal flaws and made enormous mistakes along the way.
    Rules. You have to follow the rules. It's that simple. Lance Armstrong thought he was bigger than the rules. He wasn't, and isn't.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  9. #23
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    Rules. You have to follow the rules. It's that simple. Lance Armstrong thought he was bigger than the rules. He wasn't, and isn't.
    So did literally everyone else, so who gives a damn?
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

  10. #24
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Lance Armstrong

    I don't really care about the cheating part of it.

    What makes Armstrong a Bad Person (tm) are the law suits were he went to destroy people who were telling the truth.

    He ruined lives.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  11. #25
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Lance Armstrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I don't really care about the cheating part of it.

    What makes Armstrong a Bad Person (tm) are the law suits were he went to destroy people who were telling the truth.

    He ruined lives.
    Amen.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  12. #26
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Lance Armstrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I came out of it thinking that he's someone who wants to put this behind him with at least some of his $125mill fortune intact. He wants to get the lawsuits filed, settle out of court, hopefully have a few million left over, move on

    Like you I have very little respect for him but I'm not into hero worship to begin with. I never thought he was anything more than a good bicycler and I don't rate that skill very high in society
    A sport with a culture of PEDs use where one of its greatest athletes ever can parlay that into raising millions of dollars for charity is better for society than a version of the sport that brands itself as clean and nobody cares about it except some French people for a few weeks out of the year.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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