No one to the hall this year

[oneupper]

For those who somehow-someway are in denial over PEDS...

"I think it's kind of unfair, but it's the reality of the era we played in," Biggio said. "Obviously, some guys are guilty and other guys aren't. It's painful for the ones that weren't, and hopefully this situation will all pass and move on and we'll have something possibly good to talk about maybe next year."

Please do not act like it did not happen. Please do not act like many players would take something that is all BS in helping them (LOL). Please do not act like all those 60+ HR seasons were not relative to PEDs. Oh yea, probably just a coincidence and related all to a juiced ball. Please do not act like places like BALCO were not in existence and did not have a line of athletes wanting their products. I guess Lance Arnstrong's blood tranfusions were health related and not relative to hiding something that made him a 7-time Tour de Franace champion too.

We all have our opinions, but the denial thing (that it does not matter or help) just amazes me.

They sold us the "small park/juiced ball" argument back in the day and most of us bought it then. (I did, for a while too).
Heck, when I starting coming to Redszone (circa 2004), a good chunk of posters were PED-deniers. Some have come around, but then only to become PED-justifiers.
We also have those who claim the era is "over" despite seeing the 2011 MVP caught (which some ALSO deny) and even the all-star MVP from this year caught and suspended.

Fool me once...
C'mon, wake up people.

[edabbs44]

Not true. This is a much better and deeper generation of pitchers. It's been 15 seasons since the last expansion. Organizations have had time to figure out how to tame the behemoths and develop the arms they need. The pitching has definitely adapted.

Also some of the newest parks - Citi Field, Petco, Target Field - are pitching havens.

And it should be noted that HR levels are still really high. NL teams averaged 152 HR last season. In 1992 (the last season before the double expansion and it conveniently ends with a 2), NL teams averaged 105 HR. Interestingly scoring is only up to 4.22 from 3.88 despite that, which makes a great case for the importance of speed (OB and BA are essentially flat, SB are down 25 per team). NL teams averaged 162 HR in 2002 (the last season in which there was no PED testing of any kind and it conveniently ends with a 2). So if everything else was flat and the only difference was PEDs are gone, then the power difference is pretty small.

In 2000, 48 players had OPSs of .900 or greater, 19 of whom were at or above 1.000. 2012 had 11 and zero, respectively.

Earlier this year it was stated by some in another convo that the .900 OPS barrier was Willie Mays and Stan Musial territory. In 2000, it was Sean Casey, Geoff Jenkins, Bobby Higginson and Edgardo Alfonso territory.

[dfs]

They do juice the ball and deaden it.

I have no doubt that the ball gets juiced and deadened. What I find comical is the notion that MLB is secretly covering it up and letting the PED scandal "take the blame." That's not exactly in MLB's best interest or if it is it's incredibly short sighted.

[REDREAD]

I get what ya mean, but... Dan Uggla started at 2nd base for the NL All-Stars this year. That alone makes the All-Star thing a moot point IMO.

But.. but.. Biggio did it before the allstar rosters were expanded to the point of being ludicrous (Isn't there like 100 players on each team now )

I'm joking around, but in all seriousness, being an allstar meant more when the rosters were only 25. Maybe Biggio's last OF appearance as an allstar wasn't really legitimate, but his years at C and 2b were.

[westofyou]

I have no doubt that the ball gets juiced and deadened. What I find comical is the notion that MLB is secretly covering it up and letting the PED scandal "take the blame." That's not exactly in MLB's best interest or if it is it's incredibly short sighted.

Well yeah that's a little too Alex Jones

[westofyou]

In 2000, 48 players had OPSs of .900 or greater, 19 of whom were at or above 1.000. 2012 had 11 and zero, respectively.

Earlier this year it was stated by some in another convo that the .900 OPS barrier was Willie Mays and Stan Musial territory. In 2000, it was Sean Casey, Geoff Jenkins, Bobby Higginson and Edgardo Alfonso territory.

Well 1930 had 38 .900 OPSs with 13 over 1.000 and 1942 had 7 with one player over 1.000

[*BaseClogger*]

Well 1930 had 38 .900 OPSs with 13 over 1.000 and 1942 had 7 with one player over 1.000

Did a war have something to do with that or no?

[westofyou]

Did a war have something to do with that or no?

Not 1942, only a handful of MLB players were involved then as the war was only four months old on OD

[Hoosier Red]

For those who somehow-someway are in denial over PEDS...

"I think it's kind of unfair, but it's the reality of the era we played in," Biggio said. "Obviously, some guys are guilty and other guys aren't. It's painful for the ones that weren't, and hopefully this situation will all pass and move on and we'll have something possibly good to talk about maybe next year."

Please do not act like it did not happen. Please do not act like many players would take something that is all BS in helping them (LOL). Please do not act like all those 60+ HR seasons were not relative to PEDs. Oh yea, probably just a coincidence and related all to a juiced ball. Please do not act like places like BALCO were not in existence and did not have a line of athletes wanting their products. I guess Lance Arnstrong's blood tranfusions were health related and not relative to hiding something that made him a 7-time Tour de Franace champion too.

We all have our opinions, but the denial thing (that it does not matter or help) just amazes me.

I don't think anyone is suggesting for a minute that PEDs didn't have any impact. Simply that it wasn't the only driver or even the primary driver for increased home runs and increased offense.

For those who suggest that it would be bad PR for baseball to focus on the PED players as opposed to other causes, I'm not sure why that would be.

Having seen the PED's outed, and seeing fans visceral reactions to those players, it seems a perfect move to isolate those players "who flourished before Emperor Bud enacted the new steroids testing."
Now that there is testing and HGH testing at that, you can totally believe everything you're seeing on the field is more pure than Ivory soap.

[M2]

In 2000, 48 players had OPSs of .900 or greater, 19 of whom were at or above 1.000. 2012 had 11 and zero, respectively.

Earlier this year it was stated by some in another convo that the .900 OPS barrier was Willie Mays and Stan Musial territory. In 2000, it was Sean Casey, Geoff Jenkins, Bobby Higginson and Edgardo Alfonso territory.

In 1976 exactly three players in all of MLB posted a .900 or better OPS (one above 1.000) - Joe Morgan, Bill Madlock and Mike Schmidt. In 1977 15 guys did it (three above 1.000), including Mitchell Paige, Andre Thornton and Larry Hisle.

In 1992, 7 guys above .900, one above 1.000 (Bonds). In 1993 it jumped to 19 and 7 (including Chris Hoiles).

Expansion has an enormous effect on upper end production. It was no coincidence Roger Maris hit his 61 HR in 1961 (and expansion year) and that he never hit more than 39 in a single season outside of that.

You can go back to the 50s and 60s and find plenty of Geoff Jenkins type .900 OPS players. It's not that hard.

BTW, are we now putting Casey on the list of PED abusers? He's one guy I can fully believe played clean (body type, personality, chronic inability to put two productive half seasons together). Because, if he was clean, then something else was going on to drive up his OPS.

No one's arguing that PED didn't fuel production in the late '90s and early '00s. However, as WOY noted, there's documented history that changes in baseballs can get you offensive explosions like in 1930 and in 1987. And you can see how expansion plays a huge role.

I can't vouch for the baseballs in the roids era (though I suspect the powers that be wanted more scoring after 1994 and liked the way their cash registers were ringing once the homers started flying). I can vouch for expansion. I can vouch for smaller parks. I can vouch for it profiling as a hitters era regardless of other factors. We're still seeing roughly 50% more HR in the game today than we did 20 years ago.

No one's saying PED didn't fuel some of the production, but pitchers took roids too and it didn't seem to create a lot of supermen on the mound (outside of the older Roger Clemens). My guess is PED simply fed into the direction the game was taking even if there had been no PED. It pumped the volume to 11, but the volume was going to be 9 or 10 anyway. So you get Barry Bonds' turn as a Greek god and Brady Anderson whacking 50 HR in 1996, but to think the entire era came straight out of a bottle is, IMO, naive.

[westofyou]

In 1976 exactly three players in all of MLB posted a .900 or better OPS (one above 1.000) - Joe Morgan, Bill Madlock and Mike Schmidt. In 1977 15 guys did it (three above 1.000), including Mitchell Paige, Andre Thornton and Larry Hisle.

In 1992, 7 guys above .900, one above 1.000 (Bonds). In 1993 it jumped to 19 and 7 (including Chris Hoiles).

Expansion has an enormous effect on upper end production. It was no coincidence Roger Maris hit his 61 HR in 1961 (and expansion year) and that he never hit more than 39 in a single season outside of that.

You can go back to the 50s and 60s and find plenty of Geoff Jenkins type .900 OPS players. It's not that hard.

BTW, are we now putting Casey on the list of PED abusers? He's one guy I can fully believe played clean (body type, personality, chronic inability to put two productive half seasons together). Because, if he was clean, then something else was going on to drive up his OPS.

No one's arguing that PED didn't fuel production in the late '90s and early '00s. However, as WOY noted, there's documented history that changes in baseballs can get you offensive explosions like in 1930 and in 1987. And you can see how expansion plays a huge role.

I can't vouch for the baseballs in the roids era (though I suspect the powers that be wanted more scoring after 1994 and liked the way their cash registers were ringing once the homers started flying). I can vouch for expansion. I can vouch for smaller parks. I can vouch for it profiling as a hitters era regardless of other factors. We're still seeing roughly 50% more HR in the game today than we did 20 years ago.

No one's saying PED didn't fuel some of the production, but pitchers took roids too and it didn't seem to create a lot of supermen on the mound (outside of the older Roger Clemens). My guess is PED simply fed into the direction the game was taking even if there had been no PED. It pumped the volume to 11, but the volume was going to be 9 or 10 anyway. So you get Barry Bonds' turn as a Greek god and Brady Anderson whacking 51 HR in 1996, but to think the entire era came straight out of a bottle is, IMO, naive.

Expansion changes the game:

SEASON
1960
OPS >= .900

OPS                             OPS      OPS    
1    Frank Robinson            1.002    1.002   
2    Mickey Mantle              .957     .957   
3    Roger Maris                .952     .952   
4    Eddie Mathews              .948     .948   
5    Willie Mays                .936     .936   
6    Ken Boyer                  .932     .932   
7    Roy Sievers                .930     .930   
8    Hank Aaron                 .919     .919   
9    Harmon Killebrew           .909     .909   
10   Ernie Banks                .904     .904   

SEASON
1961
OPS >= .900

OPS                             OPS      OPS    
1    Norm Cash                 1.148    1.148   
2    Mickey Mantle             1.135    1.135   
3    Jim Gentile               1.069    1.069   
4    Frank Robinson            1.015    1.015   
5    Harmon Killebrew          1.012    1.012   
6    Roger Maris                .993     .993   
7    Rocky Colavito             .982     .982   
8    Willie Mays                .977     .977   
9    Hank Aaron                 .974     .974   
10   Orlando Cepeda             .970     .970   
11   Roberto Clemente           .949     .949   
12   Wally Moon                 .940     .940   
13   Eddie Mathews              .937     .937   
14   Ken Boyer                  .930     .930   
15   Dick Stuart                .925     .925   
16   Roy Sievers                .913     .913   
17   George Altman              .913     .913   
18   Al Kaline                  .909     .909

Changing things in-between the lines and expansion changes the game

SEASON
1968
OPS >= .900

OPS                             OPS      OPS    
1    Willie McCovey             .923     .923   
2    Carl Yastrzemski           .922     .922

SEASON
1969
OPS >= .900

OPS                             OPS      OPS    
1    Willie McCovey            1.108    1.108   
2    Reggie Jackson            1.018    1.018   
3    Harmon Killebrew          1.011    1.011   
4    Hank Aaron                1.003    1.003   
5    Rico Petrocelli            .992     .992   
6    Frank Howard               .976     .976   
7    Frank Robinson             .955     .955   
8    Roberto Clemente           .955     .955   
9    Rusty Staub                .952     .952   
10   Dick Allen                 .949     .949   
11   Jimmy Wynn                 .943     .943   
12   Boog Powell                .942     .942   
13   Pete Rose                  .940     .940   
14   Willie Stargell            .938     .938   
15   Cleon Jones                .904     .904

Changing the ball one season to the next changes the game

SEASON
1976
OPS >= .900

OPS                             OPS      OPS    
1    Joe Morgan                1.020    1.020   
2    Bill Madlock               .912     .912   
3    Mike Schmidt               .900     .900

SEASON
1977
OPS >= .900

OPS                             OPS      OPS    
1    Rod Carew                 1.019    1.019   
2    George Foster             1.013    1.013   
3    Reggie Smith              1.003    1.003   
4    Greg Luzinski              .988     .988   
5    Jim Rice                   .969     .969   
6    Mike Schmidt               .967     .967   
7    Ken Singleton              .945     .945   
8    Dave Parker                .927     .927   
9    Mitchell Page              .926     .926   
10   Reggie Jackson             .925     .925   
11   Carlton Fisk               .922     .922   
12   Ted Simmons                .908     .908   
13   George Brett               .905     .905   
14   Andre Thornton             .904     .904   
15   Larry Hisle                .902     .902

SEASON
1919
OPS >= .900

OPS                             OPS      OPS    
1    Babe Ruth                 1.114    1.114   
2    Ty Cobb                    .944     .944   
3    Joe Jackson                .928     .928   
4    George Sisler              .921     .921   
5    Bobby Veach                .916     .916

SEASON
1920
OPS >= .900

OPS                             OPS      OPS    
1    Babe Ruth                 1.379    1.379   
2    George Sisler             1.082    1.082   
3    Tris Speaker              1.045    1.045   
4    Joe Jackson               1.033    1.033   
5    Rogers Hornsby             .990     .990   
6    Eddie Collins              .932     .932   
7    Happy Felsch               .923     .923   
8    Elmer Smith                .910     .910   
9    Ross Youngs                .904     .904   
10   Baby Doll Jacobson         .903     .903

SEASON
1930
OPS >= .900

OPS                             OPS      OPS    
1    Babe Ruth                 1.225    1.225   
2    Lou Gehrig                1.194    1.194   
3    Hack Wilson               1.177    1.177   
4    Babe Herman               1.132    1.132   
5    Al Simmons                1.130    1.130   
6    Chuck Klein               1.123    1.123   
7    Bill Terry                1.071    1.071   
8    Jimmie Foxx               1.066    1.066   
9    Chick Hafey               1.059    1.059   
10   Lefty O'Doul              1.057    1.057   
11   Mel Ott                   1.036    1.036   
12   Gabby Hartnett            1.034    1.034   
13   Eddie Morgan              1.014    1.014   
14   Freddy Lindstrom           .999     .999   
15   Harry Heilmann             .993     .993   
16   Wally Berger               .990     .990   
17   Goose Goslin               .983     .983   
18   Kiki Cuyler                .975     .975   
19   Carl Reynolds              .973     .973   
20   Paul Waner                 .952     .952   
21   Mickey Cochrane            .949     .949   
22   George Grantham            .947     .947   
23   Earle Combs                .947     .947   
24   Earl Averill               .941     .941   
25   Woody English              .941     .941   
26   Charlie Gehringer          .938     .938   
27   Joe Cronin                 .934     .934   
28   Pie Traynor                .932     .932   
29   Frankie Frisch             .927     .927   
30   Joe Judge                  .919     .919   
31   Del Bissonette             .919     .919   
32   Dick Porter                .918     .918   
33   Heinie Manush              .915     .915   
34   Travis Jackson             .915     .915   
35   Earl Webb                  .908     .908   
36   Johnny Frederick           .908     .908   
37   Glenn Wright               .903     .903   
38   Adam Comorosky             .900     .900

SEASON
1931
OPS >= .900

OPS                             OPS      OPS    
1    Babe Ruth                 1.194    1.194   
2    Lou Gehrig                1.108    1.108   
3    Al Simmons                1.085    1.085   
4    Chuck Klein                .982     .982   
5    Earl Averill               .979     .979   
6    Mickey Cochrane            .976     .976   
7    Chick Hafey                .973     .973   
8    Goose Goslin               .967     .967   
9    Eddie Morgan               .961     .961   
10   Jimmie Foxx                .947     .947   
11   Mel Ott                    .937     .937   
12   Earl Webb                  .932     .932   
13   Bill Terry                 .926     .926

Lots of things affect the game, not all of them come in vials

[edabbs44]

Well 1930 had 38 .900 OPSs with 13 over 1.000 and 1942 had 7 with one player over 1.000

And?

[M2]

And?

And no one was using steroids in 1930.

[traderumor]

I think the expansion theory is muddying otherwise clear waters. And I don't think the mud belongs there. I'm sure it was a factor, that much of the point is valid. But the overarching explanation for the power surge of the late 90s early 00s era is rampant PEDs use. That passes the duck test when all the dust settles. Rabbit ball, with the evidence of "been done in the past," not so much.

Drug program implemented, power numbers and scoring returns to historical norms, rabbit ball pulled? I think its more likely that PED use has been greatly reduced. With the big name failed tests, I'm sure there is a cat and mouse game going on, especially with the contracts up for grabs.

Maybe they'll put the rabbit ball back in play again so they can justify even more stringent testing and penalties, all sarcasm intended.

One thing that does give the rabbit ball theory some legs, admittedly, is the manipulation of the baseballs for Coors Field. It demonstrates that baseball can and will play games with the pill to get the results it wants. However, I'm not convinced that it is a primary factor in the steroid era power explosion. That is on the players. Why folks are running to defend guys who got rich by fleecing the system, I really do not understand.

I'd also like to see some real time evidence of rabbit ball suspicions from the era. Or is this a recent theory?

[RedFanAlways1966]

And no one was using steroids in 1930.

So if it is not such a big deal or difference-maker, then:

* Why test for it?
* Why do so many athletes seek it out and use it?
* Why do BALCOs exist and take the risk of jail/fines to manufacture and distribute it?
* Why did Barry Bonds increase his HRs from 34 to 73 (more than doubled from a sure Hall of Famer pre-PED)?
* Why did Sammy Sosa increase his HRs from mid-30s to 66?

If you think the last two bullets are relative to mostly weaker pitching, smaller parks and juiced balls, I have to say no freaking way.

PEDS are not like a pet rock. There must be something about them that causes all of the above to happen.