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Thread: No one to the hall this year

  1. #136
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: No one to the hall this year

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966 View Post
    For those who somehow-someway are in denial over PEDS...

    "I think it's kind of unfair, but it's the reality of the era we played in," Biggio said. "Obviously, some guys are guilty and other guys aren't. It's painful for the ones that weren't, and hopefully this situation will all pass and move on and we'll have something possibly good to talk about maybe next year."

    Please do not act like it did not happen. Please do not act like many players would take something that is all BS in helping them (LOL). Please do not act like all those 60+ HR seasons were not relative to PEDs. Oh yea, probably just a coincidence and related all to a juiced ball. Please do not act like places like BALCO were not in existence and did not have a line of athletes wanting their products. I guess Lance Arnstrong's blood tranfusions were health related and not relative to hiding something that made him a 7-time Tour de Franace champion too.

    We all have our opinions, but the denial thing (that it does not matter or help) just amazes me.
    They sold us the "small park/juiced ball" argument back in the day and most of us bought it then. (I did, for a while too).
    Heck, when I starting coming to Redszone (circa 2004), a good chunk of posters were PED-deniers. Some have come around, but then only to become PED-justifiers.
    We also have those who claim the era is "over" despite seeing the 2011 MVP caught (which some ALSO deny) and even the all-star MVP from this year caught and suspended.

    Fool me once...
    C'mon, wake up people.
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  3. #137
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: No one to the hall this year

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Not true. This is a much better and deeper generation of pitchers. It's been 15 seasons since the last expansion. Organizations have had time to figure out how to tame the behemoths and develop the arms they need. The pitching has definitely adapted.

    Also some of the newest parks - Citi Field, Petco, Target Field - are pitching havens.

    And it should be noted that HR levels are still really high. NL teams averaged 152 HR last season. In 1992 (the last season before the double expansion and it conveniently ends with a 2), NL teams averaged 105 HR. Interestingly scoring is only up to 4.22 from 3.88 despite that, which makes a great case for the importance of speed (OB and BA are essentially flat, SB are down 25 per team). NL teams averaged 162 HR in 2002 (the last season in which there was no PED testing of any kind and it conveniently ends with a 2). So if everything else was flat and the only difference was PEDs are gone, then the power difference is pretty small.
    In 2000, 48 players had OPSs of .900 or greater, 19 of whom were at or above 1.000. 2012 had 11 and zero, respectively.

    Earlier this year it was stated by some in another convo that the .900 OPS barrier was Willie Mays and Stan Musial territory. In 2000, it was Sean Casey, Geoff Jenkins, Bobby Higginson and Edgardo Alfonso territory.
    Last edited by edabbs44; 01-11-2013 at 08:10 AM.

  4. #138
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    Re: No one to the hall this year

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    They do juice the ball and deaden it.
    I have no doubt that the ball gets juiced and deadened. What I find comical is the notion that MLB is secretly covering it up and letting the PED scandal "take the blame." That's not exactly in MLB's best interest or if it is it's incredibly short sighted.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  5. #139
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: No one to the hall this year

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966 View Post
    I get what ya mean, but... Dan Uggla started at 2nd base for the NL All-Stars this year. That alone makes the All-Star thing a moot point IMO.
    But.. but.. Biggio did it before the allstar rosters were expanded to the point of being ludicrous (Isn't there like 100 players on each team now )

    I'm joking around, but in all seriousness, being an allstar meant more when the rosters were only 25. Maybe Biggio's last OF appearance as an allstar wasn't really legitimate, but his years at C and 2b were.
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  6. #140
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfs View Post
    I have no doubt that the ball gets juiced and deadened. What I find comical is the notion that MLB is secretly covering it up and letting the PED scandal "take the blame." That's not exactly in MLB's best interest or if it is it's incredibly short sighted.
    Well yeah that's a little too Alex Jones

  7. #141
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    Re: No one to the hall this year

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    In 2000, 48 players had OPSs of .900 or greater, 19 of whom were at or above 1.000. 2012 had 11 and zero, respectively.

    Earlier this year it was stated by some in another convo that the .900 OPS barrier was Willie Mays and Stan Musial territory. In 2000, it was Sean Casey, Geoff Jenkins, Bobby Higginson and Edgardo Alfonso territory.
    Well 1930 had 38 .900 OPSs with 13 over 1.000 and 1942 had 7 with one player over 1.000

  8. #142
    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: No one to the hall this year

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Well 1930 had 38 .900 OPSs with 13 over 1.000 and 1942 had 7 with one player over 1.000
    Did a war have something to do with that or no?
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  9. #143
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    Did a war have something to do with that or no?
    Not 1942, only a handful of MLB players were involved then as the war was only four months old on OD

  10. #144
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    Re: No one to the hall this year

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966 View Post
    For those who somehow-someway are in denial over PEDS...

    "I think it's kind of unfair, but it's the reality of the era we played in," Biggio said. "Obviously, some guys are guilty and other guys aren't. It's painful for the ones that weren't, and hopefully this situation will all pass and move on and we'll have something possibly good to talk about maybe next year."

    Please do not act like it did not happen. Please do not act like many players would take something that is all BS in helping them (LOL). Please do not act like all those 60+ HR seasons were not relative to PEDs. Oh yea, probably just a coincidence and related all to a juiced ball. Please do not act like places like BALCO were not in existence and did not have a line of athletes wanting their products. I guess Lance Arnstrong's blood tranfusions were health related and not relative to hiding something that made him a 7-time Tour de Franace champion too.

    We all have our opinions, but the denial thing (that it does not matter or help) just amazes me.
    I don't think anyone is suggesting for a minute that PEDs didn't have any impact. Simply that it wasn't the only driver or even the primary driver for increased home runs and increased offense.

    For those who suggest that it would be bad PR for baseball to focus on the PED players as opposed to other causes, I'm not sure why that would be.

    Having seen the PED's outed, and seeing fans visceral reactions to those players, it seems a perfect move to isolate those players "who flourished before Emperor Bud enacted the new steroids testing."
    Now that there is testing and HGH testing at that, you can totally believe everything you're seeing on the field is more pure than Ivory soap.
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  11. #145
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: No one to the hall this year

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    In 2000, 48 players had OPSs of .900 or greater, 19 of whom were at or above 1.000. 2012 had 11 and zero, respectively.

    Earlier this year it was stated by some in another convo that the .900 OPS barrier was Willie Mays and Stan Musial territory. In 2000, it was Sean Casey, Geoff Jenkins, Bobby Higginson and Edgardo Alfonso territory.
    In 1976 exactly three players in all of MLB posted a .900 or better OPS (one above 1.000) - Joe Morgan, Bill Madlock and Mike Schmidt. In 1977 15 guys did it (three above 1.000), including Mitchell Paige, Andre Thornton and Larry Hisle.

    In 1992, 7 guys above .900, one above 1.000 (Bonds). In 1993 it jumped to 19 and 7 (including Chris Hoiles).

    Expansion has an enormous effect on upper end production. It was no coincidence Roger Maris hit his 61 HR in 1961 (and expansion year) and that he never hit more than 39 in a single season outside of that.

    You can go back to the 50s and 60s and find plenty of Geoff Jenkins type .900 OPS players. It's not that hard.

    BTW, are we now putting Casey on the list of PED abusers? He's one guy I can fully believe played clean (body type, personality, chronic inability to put two productive half seasons together). Because, if he was clean, then something else was going on to drive up his OPS.

    No one's arguing that PED didn't fuel production in the late '90s and early '00s. However, as WOY noted, there's documented history that changes in baseballs can get you offensive explosions like in 1930 and in 1987. And you can see how expansion plays a huge role.

    I can't vouch for the baseballs in the roids era (though I suspect the powers that be wanted more scoring after 1994 and liked the way their cash registers were ringing once the homers started flying). I can vouch for expansion. I can vouch for smaller parks. I can vouch for it profiling as a hitters era regardless of other factors. We're still seeing roughly 50% more HR in the game today than we did 20 years ago.

    No one's saying PED didn't fuel some of the production, but pitchers took roids too and it didn't seem to create a lot of supermen on the mound (outside of the older Roger Clemens). My guess is PED simply fed into the direction the game was taking even if there had been no PED. It pumped the volume to 11, but the volume was going to be 9 or 10 anyway. So you get Barry Bonds' turn as a Greek god and Brady Anderson whacking 50 HR in 1996, but to think the entire era came straight out of a bottle is, IMO, naive.
    Last edited by M2; 01-11-2013 at 12:37 PM.
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  12. #146
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: No one to the hall this year

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    In 1976 exactly three players in all of MLB posted a .900 or better OPS (one above 1.000) - Joe Morgan, Bill Madlock and Mike Schmidt. In 1977 15 guys did it (three above 1.000), including Mitchell Paige, Andre Thornton and Larry Hisle.

    In 1992, 7 guys above .900, one above 1.000 (Bonds). In 1993 it jumped to 19 and 7 (including Chris Hoiles).

    Expansion has an enormous effect on upper end production. It was no coincidence Roger Maris hit his 61 HR in 1961 (and expansion year) and that he never hit more than 39 in a single season outside of that.

    You can go back to the 50s and 60s and find plenty of Geoff Jenkins type .900 OPS players. It's not that hard.

    BTW, are we now putting Casey on the list of PED abusers? He's one guy I can fully believe played clean (body type, personality, chronic inability to put two productive half seasons together). Because, if he was clean, then something else was going on to drive up his OPS.

    No one's arguing that PED didn't fuel production in the late '90s and early '00s. However, as WOY noted, there's documented history that changes in baseballs can get you offensive explosions like in 1930 and in 1987. And you can see how expansion plays a huge role.

    I can't vouch for the baseballs in the roids era (though I suspect the powers that be wanted more scoring after 1994 and liked the way their cash registers were ringing once the homers started flying). I can vouch for expansion. I can vouch for smaller parks. I can vouch for it profiling as a hitters era regardless of other factors. We're still seeing roughly 50% more HR in the game today than we did 20 years ago.

    No one's saying PED didn't fuel some of the production, but pitchers took roids too and it didn't seem to create a lot of supermen on the mound (outside of the older Roger Clemens). My guess is PED simply fed into the direction the game was taking even if there had been no PED. It pumped the volume to 11, but the volume was going to be 9 or 10 anyway. So you get Barry Bonds' turn as a Greek god and Brady Anderson whacking 51 HR in 1996, but to think the entire era came straight out of a bottle is, IMO, naive.
    Expansion changes the game:

    Code:
    SEASON
    1960
    OPS >= .900
    
    OPS                             OPS      OPS    
    1    Frank Robinson            1.002    1.002   
    2    Mickey Mantle              .957     .957   
    3    Roger Maris                .952     .952   
    4    Eddie Mathews              .948     .948   
    5    Willie Mays                .936     .936   
    6    Ken Boyer                  .932     .932   
    7    Roy Sievers                .930     .930   
    8    Hank Aaron                 .919     .919   
    9    Harmon Killebrew           .909     .909   
    10   Ernie Banks                .904     .904   
    
    SEASON
    1961
    OPS >= .900
    
    OPS                             OPS      OPS    
    1    Norm Cash                 1.148    1.148   
    2    Mickey Mantle             1.135    1.135   
    3    Jim Gentile               1.069    1.069   
    4    Frank Robinson            1.015    1.015   
    5    Harmon Killebrew          1.012    1.012   
    6    Roger Maris                .993     .993   
    7    Rocky Colavito             .982     .982   
    8    Willie Mays                .977     .977   
    9    Hank Aaron                 .974     .974   
    10   Orlando Cepeda             .970     .970   
    11   Roberto Clemente           .949     .949   
    12   Wally Moon                 .940     .940   
    13   Eddie Mathews              .937     .937   
    14   Ken Boyer                  .930     .930   
    15   Dick Stuart                .925     .925   
    16   Roy Sievers                .913     .913   
    17   George Altman              .913     .913   
    18   Al Kaline                  .909     .909

    Changing things in-between the lines and expansion changes the game

    Code:
    SEASON
    1968
    OPS >= .900
    
    OPS                             OPS      OPS    
    1    Willie McCovey             .923     .923   
    2    Carl Yastrzemski           .922     .922
    Code:
    SEASON
    1969
    OPS >= .900
    
    OPS                             OPS      OPS    
    1    Willie McCovey            1.108    1.108   
    2    Reggie Jackson            1.018    1.018   
    3    Harmon Killebrew          1.011    1.011   
    4    Hank Aaron                1.003    1.003   
    5    Rico Petrocelli            .992     .992   
    6    Frank Howard               .976     .976   
    7    Frank Robinson             .955     .955   
    8    Roberto Clemente           .955     .955   
    9    Rusty Staub                .952     .952   
    10   Dick Allen                 .949     .949   
    11   Jimmy Wynn                 .943     .943   
    12   Boog Powell                .942     .942   
    13   Pete Rose                  .940     .940   
    14   Willie Stargell            .938     .938   
    15   Cleon Jones                .904     .904
    Changing the ball one season to the next changes the game

    Code:
    SEASON
    1976
    OPS >= .900
    
    OPS                             OPS      OPS    
    1    Joe Morgan                1.020    1.020   
    2    Bill Madlock               .912     .912   
    3    Mike Schmidt               .900     .900
    Code:
    SEASON
    1977
    OPS >= .900
    
    OPS                             OPS      OPS    
    1    Rod Carew                 1.019    1.019   
    2    George Foster             1.013    1.013   
    3    Reggie Smith              1.003    1.003   
    4    Greg Luzinski              .988     .988   
    5    Jim Rice                   .969     .969   
    6    Mike Schmidt               .967     .967   
    7    Ken Singleton              .945     .945   
    8    Dave Parker                .927     .927   
    9    Mitchell Page              .926     .926   
    10   Reggie Jackson             .925     .925   
    11   Carlton Fisk               .922     .922   
    12   Ted Simmons                .908     .908   
    13   George Brett               .905     .905   
    14   Andre Thornton             .904     .904   
    15   Larry Hisle                .902     .902
    Code:
    SEASON
    1919
    OPS >= .900
    
    OPS                             OPS      OPS    
    1    Babe Ruth                 1.114    1.114   
    2    Ty Cobb                    .944     .944   
    3    Joe Jackson                .928     .928   
    4    George Sisler              .921     .921   
    5    Bobby Veach                .916     .916
    Code:
    SEASON
    1920
    OPS >= .900
    
    OPS                             OPS      OPS    
    1    Babe Ruth                 1.379    1.379   
    2    George Sisler             1.082    1.082   
    3    Tris Speaker              1.045    1.045   
    4    Joe Jackson               1.033    1.033   
    5    Rogers Hornsby             .990     .990   
    6    Eddie Collins              .932     .932   
    7    Happy Felsch               .923     .923   
    8    Elmer Smith                .910     .910   
    9    Ross Youngs                .904     .904   
    10   Baby Doll Jacobson         .903     .903

    Code:
    SEASON
    1930
    OPS >= .900
    
    OPS                             OPS      OPS    
    1    Babe Ruth                 1.225    1.225   
    2    Lou Gehrig                1.194    1.194   
    3    Hack Wilson               1.177    1.177   
    4    Babe Herman               1.132    1.132   
    5    Al Simmons                1.130    1.130   
    6    Chuck Klein               1.123    1.123   
    7    Bill Terry                1.071    1.071   
    8    Jimmie Foxx               1.066    1.066   
    9    Chick Hafey               1.059    1.059   
    10   Lefty O'Doul              1.057    1.057   
    11   Mel Ott                   1.036    1.036   
    12   Gabby Hartnett            1.034    1.034   
    13   Eddie Morgan              1.014    1.014   
    14   Freddy Lindstrom           .999     .999   
    15   Harry Heilmann             .993     .993   
    16   Wally Berger               .990     .990   
    17   Goose Goslin               .983     .983   
    18   Kiki Cuyler                .975     .975   
    19   Carl Reynolds              .973     .973   
    20   Paul Waner                 .952     .952   
    21   Mickey Cochrane            .949     .949   
    22   George Grantham            .947     .947   
    23   Earle Combs                .947     .947   
    24   Earl Averill               .941     .941   
    25   Woody English              .941     .941   
    26   Charlie Gehringer          .938     .938   
    27   Joe Cronin                 .934     .934   
    28   Pie Traynor                .932     .932   
    29   Frankie Frisch             .927     .927   
    30   Joe Judge                  .919     .919   
    31   Del Bissonette             .919     .919   
    32   Dick Porter                .918     .918   
    33   Heinie Manush              .915     .915   
    34   Travis Jackson             .915     .915   
    35   Earl Webb                  .908     .908   
    36   Johnny Frederick           .908     .908   
    37   Glenn Wright               .903     .903   
    38   Adam Comorosky             .900     .900
    Code:
    SEASON
    1931
    OPS >= .900
    
    OPS                             OPS      OPS    
    1    Babe Ruth                 1.194    1.194   
    2    Lou Gehrig                1.108    1.108   
    3    Al Simmons                1.085    1.085   
    4    Chuck Klein                .982     .982   
    5    Earl Averill               .979     .979   
    6    Mickey Cochrane            .976     .976   
    7    Chick Hafey                .973     .973   
    8    Goose Goslin               .967     .967   
    9    Eddie Morgan               .961     .961   
    10   Jimmie Foxx                .947     .947   
    11   Mel Ott                    .937     .937   
    12   Earl Webb                  .932     .932   
    13   Bill Terry                 .926     .926
    Lots of things affect the game, not all of them come in vials

  13. #147
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: No one to the hall this year

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Well 1930 had 38 .900 OPSs with 13 over 1.000 and 1942 had 7 with one player over 1.000
    And?

  14. #148
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: No one to the hall this year

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    And?
    And no one was using steroids in 1930.
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  15. #149
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: No one to the hall this year

    I think the expansion theory is muddying otherwise clear waters. And I don't think the mud belongs there. I'm sure it was a factor, that much of the point is valid. But the overarching explanation for the power surge of the late 90s early 00s era is rampant PEDs use. That passes the duck test when all the dust settles. Rabbit ball, with the evidence of "been done in the past," not so much.

    Drug program implemented, power numbers and scoring returns to historical norms, rabbit ball pulled? I think its more likely that PED use has been greatly reduced. With the big name failed tests, I'm sure there is a cat and mouse game going on, especially with the contracts up for grabs.

    Maybe they'll put the rabbit ball back in play again so they can justify even more stringent testing and penalties, all sarcasm intended.

    One thing that does give the rabbit ball theory some legs, admittedly, is the manipulation of the baseballs for Coors Field. It demonstrates that baseball can and will play games with the pill to get the results it wants. However, I'm not convinced that it is a primary factor in the steroid era power explosion. That is on the players. Why folks are running to defend guys who got rich by fleecing the system, I really do not understand.

    I'd also like to see some real time evidence of rabbit ball suspicions from the era. Or is this a recent theory?
    Last edited by traderumor; 01-11-2013 at 01:35 PM.
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  16. #150
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: No one to the hall this year

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    And no one was using steroids in 1930.
    So if it is not such a big deal or difference-maker, then:

    * Why test for it?
    * Why do so many athletes seek it out and use it?
    * Why do BALCOs exist and take the risk of jail/fines to manufacture and distribute it?
    * Why did Barry Bonds increase his HRs from 34 to 73 (more than doubled from a sure Hall of Famer pre-PED)?
    * Why did Sammy Sosa increase his HRs from mid-30s to 66?

    If you think the last two bullets are relative to mostly weaker pitching, smaller parks and juiced balls, I have to say no freaking way.

    PEDS are not like a pet rock. There must be something about them that causes all of the above to happen.
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.


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