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Thread: 2013 Bengals Discussion

  1. #196
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion

    Right Tackle is not considered a premium position in the NFL. The average contract is 4-5 yrs at 5-6 million per season. Mike Brown is not about to start paying a RT LT money. I would think the Bengals would offer a reasonable contract but I can't see them giving in to the 9 million per season demands. Plus you have big deals on the horizon with Green, Johnson, Dunlap, and Atkins can you afford to take a 9 million dollar hit on Smith. Go 5 for 35 and if he balks let him walk and plug Collins in. Collins is very underrated by this team.
    Last edited by KoryMac5; 03-03-2013 at 10:31 AM.
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  3. #197
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    Right Tackle is not considered a premium position in the NFL. The average contract is 4-5 yrs at 5-6 million per season. Mike Brown is not about to start paying a RT LT money. I would think the Bengals would offer a reasonable contract but I can't see them giving in to the 9 million per season demands. Plus you have big deals on the horizon with Green, Johnson, Dunlap, and Atkins can you afford to take a 9 million dollar hit on Smith. Go 5 for 35 and if he balks let him walk and plug Collins in. Collins is very underrated by this team.
    Exactly, the math says if you keep such a guy he can't make core money.

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  4. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    Right Tackle is not considered a premium position in the NFL. The average contract is 4-5 yrs at 5-6 million per season. Mike Brown is not about to start paying a RT LT money. I would think the Bengals would offer a reasonable contract but I can't see them giving in to the 9 million per season demands. Plus you have big deals on the horizon with Green, Johnson, Dunlap, and Atkins can you afford to take a 9 million dollar hit on Smith. Go 5 for 35 and if he balks let him walk and plug Collins in. Collins is very underrated by this team.
    The reason you don't see many great right tackles is because they move to the left side. A right tackle is basically a failed left tackle. I have no problem letting Smith walk if he wants left tackle money. Right tackle is a position that is easily replaced through the draft.

  5. #199
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    That's exactly why I would have tagged him. Let him play another year with motivation.

    Your scenario assumes the Bengals are like other NFL teams and actually participate in Free Agency and, you know, actually try to bring in talented players from other teams. This is the Bengals, their mantra is "Build through the draft and retain homegrown talent." the problem with that mantra is that when you violate it once, the whole thing blows up. When they didn't sign JJ, the most talented defensive player they drafted in a decade, they had to use their first round pick to replace him, precluding the team from addressing other needs and truly "building through the draft." Now they face the same scenario with Hippo Smith. He's not Willie Anderson, but he is arguably one of their top 5 assets on offense. If they let him walk, the team will be in regression as they won't be able to use the first round pick to actually improve the team, and with a QB and an RB who are NOT above average, going with a lesser player in that spot will cripple the offense. As I said, if Smith leaves the Bengals are NOT playoff bound. Book it.
    Exactly. Remember when we used to disagree?

    Who says you have to be locked into a bad deal with Andre Smith and get stuck with a bad contract? This is the NFL, if he eats himself out of the position cut him, like any other team would. Why are people so worried about paying him, when the Bengals are $44 Million under the cap? Front load the deal.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by joshnky View Post
    The reason you don't see many great right tackles is because they move to the left side. A right tackle is basically a failed left tackle. I have no problem letting Smith walk if he wants left tackle money. Right tackle is a position that is easily replaced through the draft.
    Which is fine if you use the money you had budgeted to give to Smith to fill other holes in free agency. Simply letting Smith go, drafting his replacement in the 1st round and pocketing the difference in money is at best treading water.

  7. #201
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion

    Andre Smith is not worth 9 million a yr to play the right side. Overpaying him is just bad business. We have Collins in the wings who grades out better in pass protection, draft depth later on if needed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    Andre Smith is not worth 9 million a yr to play the right side. Overpaying him is just bad business. We have Collins in the wings who grades out better in pass protection, draft depth later on if needed.
    I think you can criticize Brown for be cheap in free agency but I don't understand the desire to pay a right tackle, left tackle money after one good year.

    Contrary to the opinions in this thread, I don't think right tackle is the position that will decide the season. If he wants too much money, I don't mind the Bengals letting him walk and using that money on green, Atkins, and Dalton. Looking at the money for flacco, all three of them are going to be looking for huge deals.

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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by joshnky View Post
    I think you can criticize Brown for be cheap in free agency but I don't understand the desire to pay a right tackle, left tackle money after one good year.

    Contrary to the opinions in this thread, I don't think right tackle is the position that will decide the season. If he wants too much money, I don't mind the Bengals letting him walk and using that money on green, Atkins, and Dalton. Looking at the money for flacco, all three of them are going to be looking for huge deals.
    Atkins is the only one that is even eligible to negotiate. And Andy Dalton will never be a top 5 QB, so he wont get top 5 money (you could argue top 10). AJ and Geno will cost a lot eventually, but so what, how does that effect what we do this year for the o-line?

    Zeitler is good. But the fact of the matter with Smith gone, and Whitworth's production declining, this line is average at best and probably a bit below that. Factor in a QB and RB who are also fringe average at best, and you have a very poor offense. One good (great) WR does not an offense make.
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  10. #204
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion

    Flacco won a Superbowl. Did I miss the one Andy Dalton won? We are talking Matt Schaub money. Not a budget breaker. Atkins and Green will see about $100 Million each.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

  11. #205
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion

    This is what Pro Football Focus had to say about Collins last season when he was an FA:

    That Collins ranks fourth among free agency tackles shows the depth, or lack thereof, in this tackle class. That is not to say that Collins isn’t a capable player, but with only five starts in the last two seasons, one of which saw him play only 14 snaps, his body of work is somewhat lacking. However Collins’ quality of play in those starts has been extremely impressive and, but for a No. 5 overall pick sitting above him on the depth chart demanding time to bed in, might have seen him earn more playing time. In his only extended stretch as a starter, 13 straight starts from Week 12 2008 to Week 9 2009, Collins proved to be an adequate starter and a team looking to fill a gap for the short term could get a pleasant surprise in Collins who with four years of experience at age 26 this season has plenty of tread left on his tires.
    Start Collins, draft a tackle in the 3rd or 4th and use the money to fill other holes.
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  12. #206
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion

    Peter King and Dave Lapham are the two guys to listen to on Bengals draft thinking. King just tweeted that Mantei Teo won't get past the Bengals at 21.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

  13. #207
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    That's exactly why I would have tagged him. Let him play another year with motivation.

    Your scenario assumes the Bengals are like other NFL teams and actually participate in Free Agency and, you know, actually try to bring in talented players from other teams. This is the Bengals, their mantra is "Build through the draft and retain homegrown talent." the problem with that mantra is that when you violate it once, the whole thing blows up. When they didn't sign JJ, the most talented defensive player they drafted in a decade, they had to use their first round pick to replace him, precluding the team from addressing other needs and truly "building through the draft." Now they face the same scenario with Hippo Smith. He's not Willie Anderson, but he is arguably one of their top 5 assets on offense. If they let him walk, the team will be in regression as they won't be able to use the first round pick to actually improve the team, and with a QB and an RB who are NOT above average, going with a lesser player in that spot will cripple the offense. As I said, if Smith leaves the Bengals are NOT playoff bound. Book it.
    This kinda hurts to say it but ever since Marvin got here the Bengals have been operating how the good teams in the league operate. Now they may miss from time to time, extending Willie instead of Steinbach or Hall instead of JJ, but for the most part they have been doing a good job of extending the players that need to be extended. One thing to consider when they extended Hall, extending JJ would have been a massive commitment to the secondary, one that isn't necessarily a smart move.

    I want to see them extend Andre but wouldn't be upset if they though Collins could do just as good of a job. One thing to consider is this draft is thought to have depth in the OL and have a lot of value in the later 1st and into the 2nd round. Would you want Andre signed to limit what you could do to Green or Adkins?

    The one reason I would like to see them sign Andre is that frees up the draft to address positions like S, RB, LB.

  14. #208
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion

    Peter King reported several teams are scared of paying Smith big money because they feel the signing bonus would effect his desire. Basically he will eat himself back to where he was when he first signed with the Bengals.
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  15. #209
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    Peter King reported several teams are scared of paying Smith big money because they feel the signing bonus would effect his desire. Basically he will eat himself back to where he was when he first signed with the Bengals.
    The key has got to be limited up front money

  16. #210
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    Re: 2013 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Atkins is the only one that is even eligible to negotiate. And Andy Dalton will never be a top 5 QB, so he wont get top 5 money (you could argue top 10). AJ and Geno will cost a lot eventually, but so what, how does that effect what we do this year for the o-line?

    Zeitler is good. But the fact of the matter with Smith gone, and Whitworth's production declining, this line is average at best and probably a bit below that. Factor in a QB and RB who are also fringe average at best, and you have a very poor offense. One good (great) WR does not an offense make.
    While I agree with your overall synopsis about the offense lacking you are just not doing the math. 50 million-ish under the cap right now after MJ's franchising, there is no guarantee that will change this season, then what happens with his money next year see the CBA for franchising a guy 2 years in a row and so on. But even if he does sign long term that number won't shrink away completely. Same goes with Andre who wants north of 9 million per. Now the key here is to remember this franchise has few big contracts and where they do are key spots in LT (Whit) and CB (Hall) places where there is likely to always remain a big contract.

    Now AJ and Geno arguably are top 5 at their positions and QB is by far the highest paid spot on the field so a "Matt Schaub" like guy is gonna being making close to as big a money as any other top guy at their position. And in order to maximize those deals the sooner you sign them the better. By the start of the '14 season you are gonna be looking at 5-7 guys making 9+ million a season, whereas right now we have none. Bye bye 50 million of cap room and welcome to cap casualties, and that isn't even taking into consideration quality replacements should they become injured or ineffective.

    2013 Franchise tag # (tough to say what it will be in the followin years)
    Geno - FA 2014 - 8.5 Mill
    AJ - FA - 2015 - 10.5 Mill
    Dalton - FA - 2015 - 14.5 Mill
    Dunlap - FA 2014 - 11 Mill

    The Bengals cannot just take a chance on Andre Smith, they have to offer what is smart and move on if he doesn't accept it. And frankly given the fact we all know how he struggles to stay conditioned and he is only gonna get older and that battle will be tougher to win I would feel better if he didn't sign with the Bengals, of course I am biased because I said 4 years ago I wouldn't take him then for this very same reason and he managed to squeeze out just under 2 full seasons since then and only one really commensurate with his talent level.
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