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Thread: 2013 Bengals Discussion

  1. #46
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    If he's surrounded by playmakers, he can facilitate well. But he doesn't strike me as someone who's going to make anyone look better than they are.
    I agree 100% with this. You have to surround him with playmakers, which is why even though the Bengals invested two picks in WRs last year, I wouldn't be upset if they grabbed another one early (along with a RB) in this year's draft.

    I also wouldn't be upset if they hedged their bet like the 49ers did and take a QB with one of those 2nd round picks.

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  3. #47
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I don't care how young or old Dalton is, he doesn't have it in him to be a winner. He isn't the guy to carry you. He is a guy who can not hurt you. He doesn't have the arm to be the man to carry a team. He is a solid quarterback. He won't be any more than that.
    So being 2 for 2 as QB for a playoff team doesn't qualify him as a winner? I've seen comparisons to Kitna, and I get that, but I see more of a Ken Anderson career. He took the team to a Super Bowl and was a goal line stand away from being a Super Bowl winning QB.

    The loser was also putting up some pretty impressive stats during the run midseason until Sanu gets hurt. He is above average in his first two years, started as a rookie, and has been to the playoff both years of his career. He led his college team to a Rose Bowl victory as the MVP, came from famed the Katy HS program...........I'd say his pedigree and resume is pretty strong against such a bold low ceiling prediction.
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  4. #48
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    I'm afraid this is right. I remember seeing a picture of Dalton straight on through the facemask, and it looked just like Jon Kitna. I'm afraid that's what I see in Dalton. A slightly better version of Jon Kitna.

    He's generally smart, (but still prone to huge mind numbing blunders.)
    But he's a little bit undersized, not particularly mobile, and doesn't have very good pocket awareness so a lot of balls are going to get batted down at the line of scrimmage.

    If he's surrounded by playmakers, he can facilitate well. But he doesn't strike me as someone who's going to make anyone look better than they are.
    Well, I retract my prior post. I didn't realize that Dalton was a Kitna hologram.
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  5. #49
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Dalton is an average NFL QB. I would say he's slightly better than Mark Sanchez but slightly worse than Joe Flacco (two QBs who also took their teams to the playoffs their first two seasons).

    He is similar to Jon Kitna, Matt Hasselbeck, Christian Ponder, Alex Smith, and Rex Grossman. Doesn't mean you can't win with him, it just means you'll need a top 3 defense and you'll need to surround him with weapons. The only real weapon currently on the offense is AJ Green. Everyone else is replacement level.

    My plan for the Bengals is this:

    1. Re-sign Smith and MJ. Sign a FA WR like Bowe, Wallace, or Amendola
    2. Use the first round draft pick on a LB or SS (likely Alec Ogletree or Kenny Vaccaro)
    3. Use the early 2nd round pick on whichever you don't get in the first.
    4. Use the late 2nd round pick and the 3rd round pick on a RB and WR (in whichever order)
    5. Draft a C in the 4th round. Kyle Cook is not the same. Robinson may be OK, but I'd get some insurance at that position.
    6. Waive bye-bye to Maualuga, Newman, Clements, Geathers, Lawson, Leonard, Scott, and Tate.
    7. Try to make Taylor Mays into an OLB.

    With those moves and assuming Zimmer returns, the Bengals will be in the running for the best defense in the NFL. Not only will they be upgrading their two weakest positions (LB and SS) with top 40 picks, but last year's top two picks Kirkpatrick and Still should hopefully get on the field and make an impact as well.

    In addition, with a legit #2 WR (one of the FA), another year of improvement from Sanu/Jones/Hawk and/or whoever they draft in the late 2nd/3rd round, as well as a complement for Law Firm at RB, the offense should be improved as well. Andy Dalton should have every chance to succeed, at least as much as Dilfer did in 2000, Grossman did in 2005, and Smith and Sanchez did in 2010.

    Use 2013 as a make or break for Dalton and Gresham. If they really improve, great. If they don't, I wouldn't necessarily use a 1st, but maybe a 2nd/3rd round pick on guys who will push them - much like the 49ers did with Kaepernick/Smith.
    Last edited by Benihana; 01-08-2013 at 10:00 AM.
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  6. #50
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    You have to bring back Newman at this point. He was solid, especially in the second half of the season. Behind him is a complete unknown (Kirkpatrick) and a guy who isn't very good (Jason Allen). And if Zim is back, I almost guarantee Newman will be back.

  7. #51
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    All this crap about how he "doesn't have it in him" to win makes me laugh.

    I don't know how good Dalton will be in 3-5 years and neither does anyone else. But what I do know is that early playoff games are hardly a barometer of future success.
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ohayou View Post
    All this crap about how he "doesn't have it in him" to win makes me laugh.

    I don't know how good Dalton will be in 3-5 years and neither does anyone else. But what I do know is that early playoff games are hardly a barometer of future success.
    Yep, one snap in a playoff game and your franchise quarterback is done. But Dalton is what he is, right?
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  9. #53
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    For a 2nd year quarterback Dalton has been crazy good. 1 of 3 qbs to throw for 20+ tds in his first two seasons (Peyton and Marino), 2 for 2 in playoff appearances, and he has the kind of image you want from the leader of your team.

    Like traderumor said, when Sanu was getting worked in Dalton looked great. There's way too much that goes into QBs success to put all of the late struggles on Dalton. There's only a few guys in the league that can make mediocre talent look great by throwing them open, so yea Dalton isn't Peyton Manning. He needs a better deep ball and I'm sure it'll be worked on a lot this offseason.

    I just don't see the need to try and ultimately judge him at this point in his career. Jon Kitna this or whatever, it's way too early to tell. The thing I do know is that quarterbacks usually don't peak in their 2nd year in the league.

  10. #54
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ohayou View Post
    All this crap about how he "doesn't have it in him" to win makes me laugh.

    I don't know how good Dalton will be in 3-5 years and neither does anyone else. But what I do know is that early playoff games are hardly a barometer of future success.
    Look at the arm strength. It simply isn't there. He either waits to long to see the separation, then throws it high to get it far enough, which allows the safety to get there, or he over throws it because he has to just chuck it. How many times would AJ have caught a deep ball and kept going if Dalton were able to throw a line drive type pass 40 yards down field? Problem is, Dalton can't do that. He has to put air under the ball to get it that far. That gives defenders time to catch up to AJ who has to slow down to accommodate the weaker arm of Dalton.

    At the end of the day, Dalton isn't going to be great. Yes, there have been a few truly great quarterbacks without laser arms. You don't count on your non-laser armed guy being that. Dalton is a game manager type quarterback. He is a guy you can win with, but not a guy you will win because of.

  11. #55
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    I don't think we need Dalton to be "the man" around here, and I am fine with him being a game manager type. What plagues Dalton currently is that he doesn't have the other guy to help him get it done. Gresham has been awful and the LawFirm is average. Dalton needs one more play maker on offense to help take the pressure off. Sanu was helpful, and Jones is still figuring things out. I would love to see the Bengals go to some 2 TE sets similar to what NE does as I don't think the league has figured that out as of yet. Not sure it's in Jay's playbook though as Gresham has been underutilized for yrs.
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  12. #56
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    I don't think we need Dalton to be "the man" around here, and I am fine with him being a game manager type. What plagues Dalton currently is that he doesn't have the other guy to help him get it done. Gresham has been awful and the LawFirm is average. Dalton needs one more play maker on offense to help take the pressure off. Sanu was helpful, and Jones is still figuring things out. I would love to see the Bengals go to some 2 TE sets similar to what NE does as I don't think the league has figured that out as of yet. Not sure it's in Jay's playbook though as Gresham has been underutilized for yrs.
    The league hasn't figured out the NE 2 tight end set yet because they have two of the best tight ends in the league and Tom Brady.

    Every team needs the quarterback to be "the man". Think about how GREAT the Ravens defenses have been for just about ever. They have one title to show for it. Why? They have never had a Top 10 caliber quarterback.

  13. #57
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Trent Dilfer went to a Super Bowl (yuck) as did Hassleback, and Rex Grossman (double yuck). You don't need to be Manning and Brady to get to the big game, though it improves your chances immensely. Dalton is not going to morph into Brady, Favre, or Manning he doesn't have that talent. However his supporting cast can improve, and with a better running game I think we will see teams attack the Bengals in a different way. The big thing is this, by the third yr you usually know what you have in a QB, by this time next yr I think we will know if the Bengals sign Dalton long term or look elsewhere for a QB.
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  14. #58
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    Trent Dilfer went to a Super Bowl (yuck) as did Hassleback, and Rex Grossman (double yuck). You don't need to be Manning and Brady to get to the big game, though it improves your chances immensely. Dalton is not going to morph into Brady, Favre, or Manning he doesn't have that talent. However his supporting cast can improve, and with a better running game I think we will see teams attack the Bengals in a different way. The big thing is this, by the third yr you usually know what you have in a QB, by this time next yr I think we will know if the Bengals sign Dalton long term or look elsewhere for a QB.
    With the rules changes the last few years, I don't know if a "game manager" can make it to the Super Bowl again, let alone win one. I wouldn't totally rule it out, but I think it is much more difficult to do it today than it was for any of the guys on the list in your first sentence (and Hasselbeck was a top 5 QB the year the Seahawks made the Super Bowl).

    If you trust the NFL's version of advanced type of stats, Dalton has been a slightly below average QB his first two years. I think he has to improve to at least the level of above average (top 12 in the league) for the Bengals to be a true contender.

  15. #59
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    Trent Dilfer went to a Super Bowl (yuck) as did Hassleback, and Rex Grossman (double yuck). You don't need to be Manning and Brady to get to the big game, though it improves your chances immensely. Dalton is not going to morph into Brady, Favre, or Manning he doesn't have that talent. However his supporting cast can improve, and with a better running game I think we will see teams attack the Bengals in a different way. The big thing is this, by the third yr you usually know what you have in a QB, by this time next yr I think we will know if the Bengals sign Dalton long term or look elsewhere for a QB.
    That is kind of the point though.... two of those teams had GREAT defenses and Hasselbeck was pretty good his year and the Seahawks had a rusher go for 1900 yards on the ground with 27 touchdowns.

    I think the Bengals have a pretty good defense, but they don't have a great defense. So now we get to the Seahawks.... I don't think it is ideal to think you can get a 1900 yard running back who can drop 27 touchdowns on the ground for you.

    To win today, you need a quarterback, a legit Top 10 quarterback. We don't have one and if I had to bet today, I would bet against Dalton ever being one.

    The last 5 starts of the year he had 4 touchdowns and 5 interceptions. He has arguably the second best receiver in the league. I will give you that he doesn't have much else right now. Still, he doesn't look the part of the guy who can take his team to a Super Bowl without a ton of help from both sides of the ball around him.

  16. #60
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    I just want to add that the discussion about Dalton and his future is a lot more fruitful over the last several posts than the earlier "he'll never be a winner" thought.
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