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Thread: 2013 Bengals Discussion

  1. #61
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Nobody's saying Dalton will ever be an elite QB and if we have a chance to get an elite QB, I suggest we jump at it. In the meantime, we need to improve the team around him

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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stray View Post
    For a 2nd year quarterback Dalton has been crazy good. 1 of 3 qbs to throw for 20+ tds in his first two seasons (Peyton and Marino), 2 for 2 in playoff appearances, and he has the kind of image you want from the leader of your team.

    Like traderumor said, when Sanu was getting worked in Dalton looked great. There's way too much that goes into QBs success to put all of the late struggles on Dalton. There's only a few guys in the league that can make mediocre talent look great by throwing them open, so yea Dalton isn't Peyton Manning. He needs a better deep ball and I'm sure it'll be worked on a lot this offseason.

    I just don't see the need to try and ultimately judge him at this point in his career. Jon Kitna this or whatever, it's way too early to tell. The thing I do know is that quarterbacks usually don't peak in their 2nd year in the league.
    It's fair to point out that it's early and he's young etc..

    But it's also fair to point out that as of today, he's a below average starting quarterback. That doesn't make him a loser, it doesn't mean you can't win with him. It simply means that his production last year was in the bottom half of the league. Close to the middle, but I don't think there's any doubt there are 16 QB's I'd put ahead of him.

    Perhaps he'll improve. But I think it's worth questioning how much improvement you can realistically project and how likely he is to getting there.
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    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    It's fair to point out that it's early and he's young etc..

    But it's also fair to point out that as of today, he's a below average starting quarterback. That doesn't make him a loser, it doesn't mean you can't win with him. It simply means that his production last year was in the bottom half of the league. Close to the middle, but I don't think there's any doubt there are 16 QB's I'd put ahead of him.

    Perhaps he'll improve. But I think it's worth questioning how much improvement you can realistically project and how likely he is to getting there.
    There aren't 16 I'd put ahead of him.

  5. #64
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    That is kind of the point though.... two of those teams had GREAT defenses and Hasselbeck was pretty good his year and the Seahawks had a rusher go for 1900 yards on the ground with 27 touchdowns.

    I think the Bengals have a pretty good defense, but they don't have a great defense. So now we get to the Seahawks.... I don't think it is ideal to think you can get a 1900 yard running back who can drop 27 touchdowns on the ground for you.

    To win today, you need a quarterback, a legit Top 10 quarterback. We don't have one and if I had to bet today, I would bet against Dalton ever being one.

    The last 5 starts of the year he had 4 touchdowns and 5 interceptions. He has arguably the second best receiver in the league. I will give you that he doesn't have much else right now. Still, he doesn't look the part of the guy who can take his team to a Super Bowl without a ton of help from both sides of the ball around him.
    This all goes to my greater point in that the kid needs some help. He's not elite, never will be but given his numbers from his first 2 yrs I think he can be pretty good. When you combine a good defense, pretty good QB, and a great wide out that leads to playoffs. If you can add a good #2 (Sanu) and a good running game you got a shot at something special. Bengals need to be looking RB in the first three rounds of this draft and hope they hit on something special.
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Nobody's saying Dalton will ever be an elite QB and if we have a chance to get an elite QB, I suggest we jump at it. In the meantime, we need to improve the team around him
    This.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Nobody's saying Dalton will ever be an elite QB and if we have a chance to get an elite QB, I suggest we jump at it. In the meantime, we need to improve the team around him
    There aren't many better options when you're drafting outside the top ten. You get guys similar to Dalton, flawed but with potential.

    The high ceiling qbs go early.

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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    There aren't 16 I'd put ahead of him.
    Quarterbacks who I believe had a better season than Dalton.

    Aaron Rodgers
    Peyton Manning
    Robert Griffin III
    Russell Wilson
    Matt Ryan
    Tom Brady
    Ben Roethlisberger
    Drew Brees
    Matt Schaub
    Tony Romo
    Philip Rivers
    Joe Flacco
    Eli Manning
    Cam Newton
    Andrew Luck
    Josh Freeman
    Matthew Stafford


    I'd argue each of these guys put up a better season than Dalton. Can you knock two or three of the list? Sure. But at best you're arguing that he's a very middle of the pack quarterback.

    Can he improve? Sure. But ask how many of these guys he's likely to move past next year, or the year after that?
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Nobody's saying Dalton will ever be an elite QB and if we have a chance to get an elite QB, I suggest we jump at it. In the meantime, we need to improve the team around him
    I was arguing Stray's comment that "For a second year quarterback he's been crazy good."
    No. He's been pretty mediocre.

    That's fine, they can with it, but it's important to recognize his limitations in order to properly build the team that can do it.
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    Quarterbacks who I believe had a better season than Dalton.

    Aaron Rodgers
    Peyton Manning
    Robert Griffin III
    Russell Wilson
    Matt Ryan
    Tom Brady
    Ben Roethlisberger
    Drew Brees
    Matt Schaub
    Tony Romo
    Philip Rivers
    Joe Flacco
    Eli Manning
    Cam Newton
    Andrew Luck
    Josh Freeman
    Matthew Stafford


    I'd argue each of these guys put up a better season than Dalton. Can you knock two or three of the list? Sure. But at best you're arguing that he's a very middle of the pack quarterback.

    Can he improve? Sure. But ask how many of these guys he's likely to move past next year, or the year after that?
    I agree he's middle of the pack with the potential to move up to become Matt Schaub. What's the problem?

  11. #70
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    I was arguing Stray's comment that "For a second year quarterback he's been crazy good."
    No. He's been pretty mediocre.

    That's fine, they can with it, but it's important to recognize his limitations in order to properly build the team that can do it.
    He does have limitations and I don't know who you're arguing with that denies that or that they should keep those in mind in building the team around him.

    My issues with him have little to do with his physical prowess. I want him coached to look off receivers, go through progressions and build an O line that'll give him the confidence and pocket to do so. Watch Tom Brady sometime and see the pocket size that he enjoys. There's no comparison

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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I agree he's middle of the pack with the potential to move up to become Matt Schaub. What's the problem?
    Well you specifically said there weren't 16 quarterbacks you'd take ahead of him. Which of those 16 would you argue he's been better than so far?

    Can he get better? Sure. So can pretty much everyone on that list. Who would you see him providing more value than over the next 3 years?

    I'm not sure we disagree as a whole. My disagreement was mainly with another poster who said his first two years were "Crazy good."

    But on the whole, I don't think even a Matt Schaub helps a team get to the Super Bowl. He may not detract from their chances, but if everything else on the team has to be elite because the quarterback is just above average, it strikes me as a flawed plan.
    Last edited by Hoosier Red; 01-08-2013 at 05:31 PM.
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    Quarterbacks who I believe had a better season than Dalton.

    Aaron Rodgers
    Peyton Manning
    Robert Griffin III

    Russell Wilson
    Matt Ryan
    Tom Brady
    Ben Roethlisberger
    Drew Brees
    Matt Schaub
    Tony Romo
    Philip Rivers
    Joe Flacco
    Eli Manning
    Cam Newton
    Andrew Luck
    Josh Freeman
    Matthew Stafford


    I'd argue each of these guys put up a better season than Dalton. Can you knock two or three of the list? Sure. But at best you're arguing that he's a very middle of the pack quarterback.

    Can he improve? Sure. But ask how many of these guys he's likely to move past next year, or the year after that?
    Agreed. I've bolded those that are clearly (and will always be) better than Dalton. Underlined those that are better now and may continue to be. Only the guys in plain italics does Dalton really have a chance to eclipse. So yes, I agree with your conclusion. He is, at best, an average NFL starting QB.
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  14. #73
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    I remember when we had Palmer, and he was putting up great stats, the argument was, he didn't win. Now we have a QB who wins, but doesn't put up great fantasy stats, and we should get rid of him. And no way would I take Newton or Freeman over Dalton.

  15. #74
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    Well you specifically said there weren't 16 quarterbacks you'd take ahead of him. Which of those 16 would you argue he's been better than so far?

    Can he get better? Sure. So can pretty much everyone on that list. Who would you see him providing more value than over the next 3 years?

    I'm not sure we disagree as a whole. My disagreement was mainly with another poster who said his first two years were "Crazy good."

    But on the whole, I don't think even a Matt Schaub helps a team get to the Super Bowl. He may not detract from their chances, but if everything else on the team has to be elite because the quarterback is just above average, it strikes me as a flawed plan.
    QBs are like aces in MLB, a limited quantity, so if you don't have one, you go with the one that gives you the best chance of winning among what's available. It would seem in theory that you would want each unit to be elite, wouldn't you? So is it poor planning that causes a team to take that area and have to settle for the best that fits among available options? For example, did the Ravens want Dilfer to be their QB, or was that the way things shook out in the multivariable world of team building? So Dalton isn't a top 10 QB, no one is arguing that he is. But the discussion began with "he will not lead the Bengals to the Promised Land." I think there is a lot more going into that than if he is or not in the same league as the top QBs in the league. Because it isn't like Manning is flashing a lot of rings. You would think he had to start ordering toe rings based on what I've been reading in this discussion.
    Last edited by traderumor; 01-08-2013 at 09:19 PM.
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    Re: Bengals vs. Houston (Rematch) Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hebroncougar View Post
    I remember when we had Palmer, and he was putting up great stats, the argument was, he didn't win. Now we have a QB who wins, but doesn't put up great fantasy stats, and we should get rid of him. And no way would I take Newton or Freeman over Dalton.
    I think it's more about playing well in big games. Playoff games. Divisional games. Giving us a chance to win. This team's Defense is 10x better than it was in the Carson years, and that coupled with a weak schedule and an out-of-this-world WR are the reasons why it has been able to get to the playoffs the past two years.

    Not saying Dalton has been a negative, but he's far from the main reason why they are winning.

    (Was Kyle Orton or Rex Grossman a "winner" when they played for the Bears? Dilfer with the Ravens? Smith with the 49ers?)
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