2013 Bengals Discussion

[wolfboy]

He's had weapons in place in New Orleans when he has done well. It's not a knock on Brees but I do think he is a great qb when he has pieces around him. Brees didn't have the same type of success in San Diego.

Peyton Manning is the type of QB you could put in Jacksonville and immediately make the offense better. I'm not sure about Brees.

I find the Brees conversation interesting:

http://blogs.bengals.com/2012/06/22/...ise-on-dalton/

“This sounds like déjà vu for me, because in 2001, I was a San Diego Charger when we drafted Drew Brees in the second round,” said Wiley. “He came in with the same attributes – he was accurate, he had great anticipation, but he had some arm strength limitations. It sounds the same when you hear about Andy Dalton. But when you watch the film, he reminds me of Drew Brees except that he’s already accelerated the learning curve because he had a better rookie season than I saw out of Drew Brees. If you look at Drew Brees now – where can Andy Dalton go and what can he become as a quarterback? I think this is a Super Bowl-bound quarterback one day. He can lead them to the promised land.”

Brees and Dalton both had the knock of being too short for the NFL.

[nmculbreth]

Andy Dalton by no means is an elite QB. But in reality I think there are only a few of those in the league. There are guys like Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, and Rodgers who are truly elite QB's. Guys who can go to a team and turn them into contenders overnight. Then you have jumbled mess with the next 10 QB's or so. You want to take Eli, Ryan or Big Ben or one of the read option guys ahead of Dalton go ahead. I don't know that I would. Truthfully out of the 2nd tier QB's the only one I would probably pay up to take over Dalton is Luck. Granted there are better QB's but when you take into consideration money I don't think the difference is all that much.

I'd take pretty much all of the second tier guys over Dalton because I think those other guys have the ability to put a team on their back and go out and win a football game, I'm not sure Dalton has that ability. You can win a lot of football games with Andy Dalton as your QB, I just think the margin for error becomes a whole lot smaller when you have a game manager at QB than it would be if you had a more dynamic player at the QB position.

[kaldaniels]

I find the Brees conversation interesting:

http://blogs.bengals.com/2012/06/22/...ise-on-dalton/



Brees and Dalton both had the knock of being too short for the NFL.

I mean, I suppose that's true, but it also stands true for any QB 6'3" and under.

If one wants to compare the 2 players, I'd just like to see a more in-depth comparison. I don't see it myself.

[wolfboy]

I mean, I suppose that's true, but it also stands true for any QB 6'3" and under.

If one wants to compare the 2 players, I'd just like to see a more in-depth comparison. I don't see it myself.

I'm not comparing the two; someone who played for Brees when he was a rookie was comparing the two. I'm just the messenger here.

Personally, I don't think they're similar quarterbacks, but they shared two very big criticisms coming out of college: too short and a weak arm. Over the years, Brees has improved his arm strength (and more importantly, accuracy) to the point that he's been one of the most effective QBs in the NFL on throws of 20+ yards. I don't think Dalton becomes that guy, but that doesn't mean he's maxed out either. Quarterbacks can grow and they can improve.

Dalton's mental lapses accentuate his physical limitations. IMHO, his ceiling isn't as low as it sometimes appears to be.

[Sea Ray]

I'm not comparing the two; someone who played for Brees when he was a rookie was comparing the two. I'm just the messenger here.

Personally, I don't think they're similar quarterbacks, but they shared two very big criticisms coming out of college: too short and a weak arm. Over the years, Brees has improved his arm strength (and more importantly, accuracy) to the point that he's been one of the most effective QBs in the NFL on throws of 20+ yards. I don't think Dalton becomes that guy, but that doesn't mean he's maxed out either. Quarterbacks can grow and they can improve.

Dalton's mental lapses accentuate his physical limitations. IMHO, his ceiling isn't as low as it sometimes appears to be.

Would you agree with me that this is the year of the referendum on Andy Dalton? He has the team, the experience and the weapons. If he doesn't do well this year then it'll be awfully hard to defend him. I hope he shuts up his critics.

[Benihana]

Our D is obviously coming off of a mammoth and admirable effort, and he is of course getting double teamed a lot, but is anyone starting to get a bit concerned with Geno Atkins?

He hasn't had much noticeable productivity (other than occupying blockers) all season, and PFF rated his game against Green Bay as the worst of his career.

[wolfboy]

Would you agree with me that this is the year of the referendum on Andy Dalton? He has the team, the experience and the weapons. If he doesn't do well this year then it'll be awfully hard to defend him. I hope he shuts up his critics.

I think you'll have to clarify what you mean. I certainly agree that he should show measurable improvement over his first two years, but I don't see how there's an Andy Dalton referendum. It's not like we're talking about guys like Locker, Freeman, Weeden, or Gabbert.

[Boss-Hog]

Our D is obviously coming off of a mammoth and admirable effort, and he is of course getting double teamed a lot, but is anyone starting to get a bit concerned with Geno Atkins?

He hasn't had much noticeable productivity (other than occupying blockers) all season, and PFF rated his game against Green Bay as the worst of his career.

I'm not worried about him, but yes, the same thought crossed my mind. Like you said, though, he's drawing double teams, and that undoubtedly is opening things up for Dunlap, Johnson and company.

[Benihana]

Just heard a rumor that Pacman was arrested again. No idea if it's true yet or not. If so, that could be a big problem for him and the team.

[wolfboy]

Just heard a rumor that Pacman was arrested again. No idea if it's true yet or not. If so, that could be a big problem for him and the team.

Disorderly conduct stemming from a DUI arrest (not his):
http://www.wcpo.com/sports/adam-pacm...arrested-again

[MWM]

He's had weapons in place in New Orleans when he has done well. It's not a knock on Brees but I do think he is a great qb when he has pieces around him. Brees didn't have the same type of success in San Diego.

Peyton Manning is the type of QB you could put in Jacksonville and immediately make the offense better. I'm not sure about Brees.

I could not disagree more. Who are these weapons you speak of....Lance Moore, Devrey Henderson, Pierre Thomas? Reggie Bush was somewhat of a weapon for a few years when he wasn't hurt. Graham is a serious weapon that he had in 2011 and now this year (he was hurt last year). Colston is a very average player who would not be very good without Brees.

Manning had Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Edgerrin James for a while along with Dallas Clark. Brady had Randy Moss when he was at his best and has also had Gronkowski the last couple of years along with Wes Welker.

I think if you line up the weapons those 3 guys have had at their disposal over the last 5-7 years, I think it would show Brees probably had the least to work with. I certainly have no idea who you're referring to.

You also said "when he has done well." When has he NOT done well? And look at when Brady and Manning have been at their best. It's when they had the most weapons. That's no different than any QB. But Brees has done what he has done without much in the way of elite offensive weapons.

I also disagree with your assessment of his time in San Diego. He had only 3 full seasons as a starter in San Diego, and one year he was replaced in the back half of the year. His first year wasn't great, but wasn't terrible like may first time starting QBs in the NFL. The next year was not very good and he was replaced by Flutie as the starter. The next year he was awesome and the following year he had a great year, too.

So he had a bumpy first 2 years as a starter, that's it. That hardly detracts from his place in the big picture in this era. Manning had a bad first year and Brady was only OK his first year. Brees was better than either in their 3rd year and has been pretty much awesome ever since. Outside of his first 2 years starting, Brees was a great QB.

He may not be on the same plane as Manning and Brady, but he's darn close. Take Brees off the Saints and I think you'd see something similar to what you saw in Indy in 2011. Brees is definitely the most underappreciated player of this genertation. The guy is one of the all time greats and the gap between him and Manning/Brady is a lot less than the gap of the next tier of QBs of the last decade.

[medford]

some things never changed. Allegedly, he was arrested for disorderly conduct while being a passenger in a car, the driver of said car was arrested for DUI (per Moe Egger on 1530 homer).

I don't know the details beyond that, but you would think the guy would learn to avoid trouble, so many of us do it on a daily basis; its not that hard to do.

As far as the Bengals are concerned, I imagine they don't say anything at the moment, nor suspend the guy (if due) at the moment w/ Leon Hall potential out this week and so many of the backups injuried at the moment.

[wolfboy]

some things never changed. Allegedly, he was arrested for disorderly conduct while being a passenger in a car, the driver of said car was arrested for DUI (per Moe Egger on 1530 homer).

I don't know the details beyond that, but you would think the guy would learn to avoid trouble, so many of us do it on a daily basis; its not that hard to do.

As far as the Bengals are concerned, I imagine they don't say anything at the moment, nor suspend the guy (if due) at the moment w/ Leon Hall potential out this week and so many of the backups injuried at the moment.

Yeah, all the talk of him reforming his life rings hollow when he still can't seem to avoid incidents that involve a club and/or alcohol.

[Benihana]

If you were ever going to play against a team with neither of your starting CB, this Cleveland offense would be it.

My plan:
1. Start Kirkpatrick against Cleveland, assuming he is healthy. It's now or never for the bust of the 2012 draft.
2. If Kirkpatrick is not up to task, offer your first round pick to Cleveland for Joe Haden (after the game).
Cleveland gets yet another first round pick allowing this regime to build from the ground up.
Bengals pair Haden with Hall to have the best CB tandem in the league.

Then release Pacman Jones (or send him to jail). The guy just doesn't get it.

[Benihana]

If you were ever going to play against a team with neither of your starting CB, this Cleveland offense would be it.

My plan:
1. Start Kirkpatrick against Cleveland, assuming he is healthy. It's now or never for the bust of the 2012 draft.
2. If Kirkpatrick is not up to task, offer your first round pick to Cleveland for Joe Haden (after the game).
Cleveland gets yet another first round pick allowing this regime to build from the ground up.
Bengals pair Haden with Hall to have the best CB tandem in the league.

Then release Pacman Jones (or send him to jail). The guy just doesn't get it.

Then draft a linebacker in the 2nd round to start alongside Burfict and Malauga. With those three as LB, Dunlap and Gilberry flanking Atkins and Peko on the d-line, and Haden and Hall as CB (with Kirkpatrick/Newman as the nickel) and Nelson and Iloka at safeties, this defense would be unstoppable. I just hope we can retain Mike Zimmer.