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Thread: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

  1. #31
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Not about cleaning, but about Cooperstown

    The National Hall of Fame and Museum will be opening a display on May 3 called “Diamond Mines,” which will be dedicated to scouts and their craft. The highlight of the display will be an interactive database that will feature at least 6,000 scouting reports, though that number is expected to grow between now and the opening.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...emond/1834063/

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  3. #32
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Someone posted the other day that Morris was the best starter born between 1952-1964.

    Cherrypicked for sure but that's one wide date range.
    I believe it was this article you're referring to.

    http://www.labigleagues.com/2013/01/...-into.html?m=1

    This provides a conundrum for me. My qualification for the HOF is simple. Was this player one of the best at his position for at least a ten year period and productive for at least fifteen years? Morris clearly fits that qualification. But it's more because there were not many above average starters during the years he played. Still haven't made up my mind on him.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  4. #33
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I believe it was this article you're referring to.

    http://www.labigleagues.com/2013/01/...-into.html?m=1

    This provides a conundrum for me. My qualification for the HOF is simple. Was this player one of the best at his position for at least a ten year period and productive for at least fifteen years? Morris clearly fits that qualification. But it's more because there were not many above average starters during the years he played. Still haven't made up my mind on him.
    In what 10 year time frame was Morris one of the best at his position? And he didn't have 15 years where he was even average.

    In his entire career, Jack Morris finished in the Top 10 in baseball in ERA+ (ERA, adjusted for the parks you play in) one time. 1979. At no other point did his ERA+ crack MLB's Top 10. He was not one of the best at his position for any 10 year period of time.

    Morris had 9 seasons with an ERA+ that was above average. He had 4 seasons where it was average. He had 5 seasons where it was considerably below average to poor.

    Not even close to being HOF worthy.

  5. #34
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    In what 10 year time frame was Morris one of the best at his position? And he didn't have 15 years where he was even average.

    In his entire career, Jack Morris finished in the Top 10 in baseball in ERA+ (ERA, adjusted for the parks you play in) one time. 1979. At no other point did his ERA+ crack MLB's Top 10. He was not one of the best at his position for any 10 year period of time.

    Morris had 9 seasons with an ERA+ that was above average. He had 4 seasons where it was average. He had 5 seasons where it was considerably below average to poor.

    Not even close to being HOF worthy.
    There's a lot more to how productive and valuable a pitcher is than ERA+. For me, during the heart of his career, there were few pitchers I would rather have on the mound starting an important game than Morris.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  6. #35
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Morris is the Preacher Roe of his generation, just made more starts

  7. #36
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Not even close to being HOF worthy.
    If your entire argument is based around ERA+, maybe the statement should be about the Hall of Top 10 in ERA+. Not trying to be disrespectful, but I think there could be more than ERA+.

  8. #37
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    If your entire argument is based around ERA+, maybe the statement should be about the Hall of Top 10 in ERA+. Not trying to be disrespectful, but I think there could be more than ERA+.
    Of course there could be, but earned runs is essentially what pitchers are judged upon, no? The guy threw a bunch of innings. But he was never really among the elite in his entire career at keeping runs off of the board. Something elite pitchers do.

  9. #38
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    There's a lot more to how productive and valuable a pitcher is than ERA+. For me, during the heart of his career, there were few pitchers I would rather have on the mound starting an important game than Morris.
    And what about those other 99% of starts he made in his career?

  10. #39
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I believe it was this article you're referring to.

    http://www.labigleagues.com/2013/01/...-into.html?m=1

    This provides a conundrum for me. My qualification for the HOF is simple. Was this player one of the best at his position for at least a ten year period and productive for at least fifteen years? Morris clearly fits that qualification. But it's more because there were not many above average starters during the years he played. Still haven't made up my mind on him.
    Do you think Ichiro is a HOFer?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  11. #40
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Do you think Ichiro is a HOFer?
    Ichiro will probably go in on the first ballot. He should be in the HOF.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  12. #41
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Of course there could be, but earned runs is essentially what pitchers are judged upon, no? The guy threw a bunch of innings. But he was never really among the elite in his entire career at keeping runs off of the board. Something elite pitchers do.
    ERA+ fun

    Blyleven > Nolan Ryan
    Fister = Cain and Hamels
    Chuck Finley > Bob Feller
    Jose Rijo > Warren Spahn
    Felix + Greinke (14 total seasons) = Kevin Appier

  13. #42
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Okay edabbs, that made my morning. Too funny.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  14. #43
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    ERA+ fun

    Blyleven > Nolan Ryan
    Fister = Cain and Hamels
    Chuck Finley > Bob Feller
    Jose Rijo > Warren Spahn
    Felix + Greinke (14 total seasons) = Kevin Appier
    Well, you've actually got two of the most overrated pitchers in history in there. You've also got some wrong information.

    Appier and Finley (who did not have a higher career ERA+ than Feller) were better than people remember. Rijo lost his decline years (and probably some of his peak) to injury, which kept his ERA+ high.

    Not really sure why you're adding King Felix and Greinke together. One guy has nothing to do with the other and Felix has been a lot better. And Fister is not even, or all that close, to Cain ad Hamels (who are not even with each other).
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  15. #44
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Well, you've actually got two of the most overrated pitchers in history in there. You've also got some wrong information.

    Appier and Finley (who did not have a higher career ERA+ than Feller) were better than people remember. Rijo lost his decline years (and probably some of his peak) to injury, which kept his ERA+ high.

    Not really sure why you're adding King Felix and Greinke together. One guy has nothing to do with the other and Felix has been a lot better. And Fister is not even, or all that close, to Cain ad Hamels (who are not even with each other).
    Sorry if I wasn't completely clear. That list was appearances in the top 10 for a given season.

  16. #45
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Sorry if I wasn't completely clear. That list was appearances in the top 10 for a given season.
    Ahh, that explains it.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.


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