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Thread: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

  1. #16
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    Just like they might need to adjust the 50% mark, I think they need to get rid of getting a certain percentage to stay on the ballot. With modern metrics, obviously some guys have been overlooked traditionally (Ken Boyer is a good example of this). Bobby Grich is a perfect example of a guy who was off the ballot either the first or second year because of the minimum threshold rule. If you look at his numbers, he compares favorably with a lot of 2B considered to be the best of the best. He was brilliant at defense at 2B and so often that is overlooked in this discussion unless a player changes the game with his defense like Ozzie Smith, Roberto Clemente, or Brooks Robinson.
    I absolutely agree with this.
    Another second baseman who should have remained on the ballot longer is Lou Whitaker. I haven't come to a firm decision as to whether or not he should be in the Hall of Fame, probably in part because he "never seemed like a Hall of Famer" to me while he was playing (and I hate that cliche of a test). However Whitaker's numbers are comparable to teammate Alan Trammell and I definitely believe Trammell should be in the HOF. I give Trammell a few "extra points" because he played the more important position and because he had a MVP worthy season in 1987, the year the MVP should have gone to a shortstop in each league (Trammell and Smith) but instead went to a couple of HR hitting outfielders (Bell and Dawson).
    As for Jack Morris, should he never be inducted that will not upset me, as he is borderline, and should he be inducted, then he will not be the worst selection ever.
    The 1984 Tigers were a great team but for now they remain one of the few world championship teams not to have a player in the HOF. Ignoring World Series winners over the last 20 years or so, because it is still early for players on those teams, the 1984 Tigers and the 1981 and 1988 Dodgers stand out as teams with no player in the HOF or a player who will obviously be inducted (they do have managers in the HOF).
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  3. #17
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    If Hoyt Wilhelm is in there, I have no problem with Jack Morris getting in.
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  4. #18
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    If Hoyt Wilhelm is in there, I have no problem with Jack Morris getting in.
    I'd take Hoyt over Morris 8 days a week.. but I would want that glove that Richards created for him
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  5. #19
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    If Hoyt Wilhelm is in there, I have no problem with Jack Morris getting in.
    Hoyt Wilhelm had an ERA+ for his career that was a whole lot better than any single season that Jack Morris ever posted. Reliever/starter of course. Wilhelm had an ERA+ of 150 or better in 12 seasons. That is equivalent to the ERA Johnny Cueto posted this past season (152 ERA+ in 2012). He was over 170 eight different times. That is the equivalent of what Cueto posted in 2011 (171 ERA+).

    Basically, Wilhelm was incredibly elite for a very long time and when he wasn't elite, he was still very good.

    Jack Morris was never elite and was actually quite below average for a decent chunk of his career too.

  6. #20
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Hoyt was good and lasted forever, don't get me wrong, but for me, I don't think he was really "elite."
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
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  7. #21
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Looking closer at Wilhelm's ERA's, I gotta respect the choice.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
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  8. #22
    Member dman's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Seeing that Dale Murphy was snubbed this year, in his final year of eligibility, drives this point home a little bit more.
    Last edited by dman; 01-15-2013 at 08:17 PM.

  9. #23
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    I think they need to get rid of getting a certain percentage to stay on the ballot. With modern metrics, obviously some guys have been overlooked traditionally (Ken Boyer is a good example of this). Bobby Grich is a perfect example of a guy who was off the ballot either the first or second year because of the minimum threshold rule. If you look at his numbers, he compares favorably with a lot of 2B considered to be the best of the best. He was brilliant at defense at 2B and so often that is overlooked in this discussion unless a player changes the game with his defense like Ozzie Smith, Roberto Clemente, or Brooks Robinson.
    While not disputing the points about Bobby Grich, I can't think of a single eventual BBWAA-voted HoF inductee who was ever anywhere within waving distance of the 5% threshold. The voting ranks are fairly static, even over the course of 15 years, and if a player can't get one out of twenty to mark that box when the memories are freshest, the odds fifteen out of twenty ever will has to be microscopic. I wouldn't be opposed to saying a player has to poll less than five percent twice before he drops off, though, just to make sure that if a guy drops off, that's exactly what the voters intended to happen.
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  10. #24
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    If they want to keep the writers voting then the 50% threshold, eliminating the 5% cutoff and no cap on the number of votes on each ballot would make sense. I'm still in favor of a HOF court populated by real baseball historians and not newspaper writers and ex-players who have a nebulous "gut" test for what makes a HOFer.
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  11. #25
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    While not disputing the points about Bobby Grich, I can't think of a single eventual BBWAA-voted HoF inductee who was ever anywhere within waving distance of the 5% threshold. The voting ranks are fairly static, even over the course of 15 years, and if a player can't get one out of twenty to mark that box when the memories are freshest, the odds fifteen out of twenty ever will has to be microscopic. I wouldn't be opposed to saying a player has to poll less than five percent twice before he drops off, though, just to make sure that if a guy drops off, that's exactly what the voters intended to happen.
    I found these names on another site of players who were one and done. Meaning they didn't get the required 5% on their first time eligible to stay on the ballot.

    C - Ted Simmons
    1B - Darrell Evans
    2b - Bobby Grich
    SS - Bert Campaneris
    3B - Buddy Bell
    Lf - Reggie Smith
    CF - Kenny Lofton
    RF - Jimmy Wynn (never got a single vote)

    SP - Kevin Brown
    SP - David Cone
    SP - Dave Steib
    SP - Rick Reuschel

    U - Lou Whitaker
    U - Willie Randolph

    IMO and more importantly in Bill James opinion both Bobby Grich and Ted Simmons should be in Cooperstown. Sadly they didn't even make the cut the first year eligible. Lotsa very stupid voters out there.
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  12. #26
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    I found these names on another site of players who were one and done. Meaning they didn't get the required 5% on their first time eligible to stay on the ballot.

    C - Ted Simmons
    1B - Darrell Evans
    2b - Bobby Grich
    SS - Bert Campaneris
    3B - Buddy Bell
    Lf - Reggie Smith
    CF - Kenny Lofton
    RF - Jimmy Wynn (never got a single vote)

    SP - Kevin Brown
    SP - David Cone
    SP - Dave Steib
    SP - Rick Reuschel

    U - Lou Whitaker
    U - Willie Randolph

    IMO and more importantly in Bill James opinion both Bobby Grich and Ted Simmons should be in Cooperstown. Sadly they didn't even make the cut the first year eligible. Lotsa very stupid voters out there.
    I'm clearly in the Ted Simmons camp because of homerism. At the very least, I don't think he should have been taken off the ballot after the first vote. Aside from Bench, Simmons was the premier offense catcher of his era. He also wasn't that bad of a defensive catcher as well, though people aren't going to remember him for his glove.

    Another guy vastly overlooked, in my opinion, is Kenny Lofton. He was an elite defensive player and stole a ton of bases. He compares favorably with other notable CFers of his day. Again, I'm not saying he should be in the HOF but he shouldn't have been taken off the ballot after just the first vote.
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  13. #27
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    I'm clearly in the Ted Simmons camp because of homerism. At the very least, I don't think he should have been taken off the ballot after the first vote. Aside from Bench, Simmons was the premier offense catcher of his era. He also wasn't that bad of a defensive catcher as well, though people aren't going to remember him for his glove.
    In his book about the Hall of Fame, "The Politics of Glory," Bill James ranked the best retired player at each position who was not in the HOF (this was in the mid 1990s). James ranked Joe Torre and Simmons as 1 and 1A in the list of catchers.
    I have never come to a firm decision with regard to Simmons but I agree that he should have lasted more than one year on the HOF ballot.
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  14. #28
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    In his book about the Hall of Fame, "The Politics of Glory," Bill James ranked the best retired player at each position who was not in the HOF (this was in the mid 1990s). James ranked Joe Torre and Simmons as 1 and 1A in the list of catchers.
    I have never come to a firm decision with regard to Simmons but I agree that he should have lasted more than one year on the HOF ballot.
    My standards for the HOF are pretty high. For example I would not vote for Gil Hodges, Roger Maris, Jack Morris, Tony Oliva or any of the other candidate that so many people think belong. In fact I wouldn't vote for my #2 childhood baseball hero David Concepcion because I think he falls just short. So before I read the book "The Politics of Glory" there is no way I would have considered Ted Simmons or Bobby Grich to be anywhere near HOF worthy but after reading the book James convinced me they belong. The fact the HOF voters wouldn't vote them past the first ballot speaks volumes for just how clueless they are.
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  15. #29
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    I think there are era things in play too...Black Jack pitched in an era with few dominant pitchers. As a result he comes off better in the eyeball memory. Plus he had that great post season game...don't underestimate the power that has in swaying a borderline guys case. In the 60s he'd have been another Claude Osteen....good innings eater but no HoFer. In the 80s and steroid era he looks better.

  16. #30
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning Up Cooperstown

    I think there are era things in play too...Black Jack pitched in an era with few dominant pitchers. As a result he comes off better in the eyeball memory. Plus he had that great post season game...don't underestimate the power that has in swaying a borderline guys case. In the 60s he'd have been another Claude Osteen....good innings eater but no HoFer. In the 80s and steroid era he looks better.


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