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Thread: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

  1. #91
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    Re: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    EE got a new contract as well. You want to cherry pick the times fine.. both have played the same number of seasons since the trade.
    And you continue to ignore that he was DFA'd at that time, TRF.

    That closes the ledger on EdE.

    Ignore his post-DFA numbers because, at that point, he could have been taken by any team in baseball.
    Last edited by Scrap Irony; 01-18-2013 at 06:10 PM.
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  3. #92
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    Re: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Honest question, what kind of magic teaching do you think Scott Rolen has that Dusty Baker, Brook Jacoby, Bryan Price and Mack Jenkins don't have?
    Can someone get Votto on the phone?

  4. #93
    All Fired Up Revering4Blue's Avatar
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    Re: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

    Jocketty made one of the best trades we'll ever see when he landed Scott Rolen. If you can find a deal which completely changed a club's fortunes as immediately and as much as the Rolen deal, I'd love to see it. I've done a good bit of looking around and I can't find anything close.
    With all due respect, I'd say that the deals for Arroyo and Phillips -- even taken into account separately -- significantly altered the state of the franchise for the better at least as much as the Rolen deal, if not more.
    "I have just been more than a little suspect of all the trades since the Willy (Scott Williamson) cash grab. That one left such a bad taste in my mouth that even a 1985 Dom Pérignon couldn't cleanse it." -- Creek14

  5. #94
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    Re: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Some on this very board that both of those were distinct possibilities, in fact, so I cannot buy your assertion at all.
    Of course they were possibilities. But were they probabilities? I'm not looking at the trade in hindsight. Same as the Hamiton/Volquez deal. At the time it was a great trade, looking back it was horrific. The Rolen deal, at the time it seemed like a considerable overpay, looking back it was excellent.

    Was he a top 100 prospect? He wasn't. Did some scouts like him? Yes, some. Not all. He wasn't the level of Cingrani, Corcino, nor Stephenson. He was, at best, a Chad Rogers type.
    Okay, let's assume you're right and he was a Chad Rogers type. Is one year of an oft-injured and aging Scott Rolen worth Juan Francisco, Chad Rogers and Sam LeCure? My point is what do most aging & injured players on one year contracts usually bring back in trade? Not that much, that's for sure.

    Okay. What does that matter at all to the trade? That the Reds could have paid less? What's less than below replacement? At the times of their various DFAs, each player was well below major league average to less than replacement.
    The point was that the Reds never even attempted to adapt to Edwin's shortcoming. They never attempted to move him to another position where he would probably have more success.

    If EdE is such a great athlete and an apparently great LF, why was he still a DH in Toronto even after they had major problems filling OF voids the past two seasons?
    Nobody said he was a great LF'er. Hell, I've never seen him play there. But I know the tools it takes to succeed there. I know what we had in place there prior to Ludwick. Edwin's bat was fine. The question regarding EE was his defense at third. Why wasn't he tried at LF with the Reds or Toronto? No clue. But can you think of a single reason why he shouldn't be able to adapt to that role rather quickly? I sure can't.

    Okay. Again, that has little to do with assessing the deal at hand. The fact is, Rolen had a 5.1 WAR in the first year and a quarter after the trade (before free agency would have hit). That's All-Star level production at 3B, even if his best years were behind him.
    What were the odds that Rolen would come out and put together that first half that he did? Long indeed. Did it work out? Absolutely. But the odds were much better that he'd be more like he was outside of that 1 first half. Offensively, at the time of the trade, Edwin and Rolen were fairly similar IMO. The biggest difference was that Edwin was heading towards his prime but held back by injury and Rolen was on the decline due to age/injury. If the deal was Edwin for Rolen, I think that would've been pretty close to fair. Maybe toss in Roenicke. Adding in a solid prospect as well was overpaying.

    Agree to disagree I'd say.
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  6. #95
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    3 games 3 putouts all as a sub

    Here are the guys holding him back since he went to Toronto

    Code:
    LF
    
    GAMES                            G     
    1    Travis Snider               218   
    2    Rajai Davis                 142   
    3    Eric Thames                 141   
    4    Jose Bautista               113   
    5    Fred Lewis                  110   
    6    Corey Patterson              89   
    7    Juan Rivera                  70   
    8    Joe Inglett                  36   
    9    Jeremy Reed                  14   
    T10  Russ Adams                    8   
    T10  David Dellucci                8
    Okay. I can't say why neither the Reds or the Jays tried him out in the outfield. Just because they didn't, doesn't mean he doesn't have the tools to do it effectively.

    Those guys didn't "hold him back", the Jays simply didn't view Edwin as a LF'er. Why, I don't know.

    Does anybody here doubt that he has the speed, the athleticism, the arm or the glove to man LF effectively given practice/reps?

    Anyway, I'm done with this as it's over and done with and serves no real purpose anyway. *sigh* I can't wait for ST to start and we can talk about REAL issues. :O)
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  7. #96
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    Re: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Of course they were possibilities. But were they probabilities? I'm not looking at the trade in hindsight. Same as the Hamiton/Volquez deal. At the time it was a great trade, looking back it was horrific. The Rolen deal, at the time it seemed like a considerable overpay, looking back it was excellent.
    Why wouldn't you gauge a trade on how the players produced? Especially prospective, young players.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Okay, let's assume you're right and he was a Chad Rogers type. Is one year of an oft-injured and aging Scott Rolen worth Juan Francisco, Chad Rogers and Sam LeCure? My point is what do most aging & injured players on one year contracts usually bring back in trade? Not that much, that's for sure.
    The Reds won the 2010 pennant, and that Chad Rogers type had a negative career WAR before he was DFAed. So, yeah, that's a no-brainer, for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    The point was that the Reds never even attempted to adapt to Edwin's shortcoming. They never attempted to move him to another position where he would probably have more success.
    No, the point is that EdE was DFA'd and anything that happened after that-- including his monster 2012 season-- is gravy for the team that signed him after the DFA, not for the team that dealt for him. (That both of those teams are the same is beside the point.)

    The Reds dealt him, in part, for a superior player that helped them win their first pennant in 15 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Nobody said he was a great LF'er. Hell, I've never seen him play there. But I know the tools it takes to succeed there. I know what we had in place there prior to Ludwick. Edwin's bat was fine. The question regarding EE was his defense at third. Why wasn't he tried at LF with the Reds or Toronto? No clue. But can you think of a single reason why he shouldn't be able to adapt to that role rather quickly? I sure can't.
    Yonder Alonso says hi. So does Billy Butler.

    Sometimes, players can't play defense well enough to stick in the field at any position. I suspect EdE is one of those types.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    What were the odds that Rolen would come out and put together that first half that he did? Long indeed. Did it work out? Absolutely. But the odds were much better that he'd be more like he was outside of that 1 first half.
    Shrug.

    Jocketty seems to find and make work those long odds a whole lot more than most GMs, scouts, experts, and fans would. He made the deal, and it worked.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Offensively, at the time of the trade, Edwin and Rolen were fairly similar IMO. The biggest difference was that Edwin was heading towards his prime but held back by injury and Rolen was on the decline due to age/injury. If the deal was Edwin for Rolen, I think that would've been pretty close to fair. Maybe toss in Roenicke. Adding in a solid prospect as well was overpaying.
    And hindsight allows us to see that you're wrong about the deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Agree to disagree I'd say.
    Fair enough.
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  8. #97
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    Re: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Does anybody here doubt that he has the speed, the athleticism, the arm or the glove to man LF effectively given practice/reps?
    Last edited by Scrap Irony; 01-18-2013 at 06:34 PM.
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  9. #98
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    Re: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Okay. I can't say why neither the Reds or the Jays tried him out in the outfield. Just because they didn't, doesn't mean he doesn't have the tools to do it effectively.

    Those guys didn't "hold him back", the Jays simply didn't view Edwin as a LF'er. Why, I don't know.

    Does anybody here doubt that he has the speed, the athleticism, the arm or the glove to man LF effectively given practice/reps?


    Anyway, I'm done with this as it's over and done with and serves no real purpose anyway. *sigh* I can't wait for ST to start and we can talk about REAL issues. :O)
    Yes most of MLB and some folks here.

    Look around the game, LF is full of crappy fielders and evidently he can't break into that group

  10. #99
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    Re: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Why wouldn't you gauge a trade on how the players produced? Especially prospective, young players.
    You can judge it that way of course. But that's not what we were doing. Well, at least that's not what I was doing. I was looking at the trade from the perspective of when it was made and what to expect going forward, not the end result. Looking back, I wouldn't change a thing. I love what Rolen brought to the team and it worked out for the best...for both teams IMO.

    I view this trade in the same way I view the Krivsky deal of Hamilton. From the POV of the day the deal was made. I personally think Krivsky did a better job on the Hamilton trade than Walt did on the Rolen trade. I thought Krivsky got what he should've been able to get for Hamilton and if filled a huge void on the club and dealt from a strength. I thought Walt traded away more than he needed to in order to improve the defense, I thought it could've been done for less (but it still should've been done).

    And due to good fortune, good luck, injuries, whatever, the end result of both deals I now view in polar opposites.

    I'm probably explaining this poorly...but I've stopped caring. LOL. Anyway, carry on. I've got to cook dinner for the kids. Later guys.
    2014 predictions:
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  11. #100
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    Just a couple random musings on this;

    * We don't know who was highly valued at what time. Zach Stewart may have been highly valued here. He may have been highly value by Baseball America (even though he wasn't a top prospect.) Clearly, and it is beyond my comprehension how this could be disputed, however this did not translate to actual value in baseball. Toronto had no qualms shipping him off for chaff to Chicago shortly after. He's been released multiple times now.

    * Comparing Edwin Encarnacion at the time of the trade to Rolen is laughable. Edwin was a marginally useful hitter and a black hole as a defender. He also had an attitude problem. He contributed to the culture of losing that had set in the entire previous decade in Cincinnati. Bringing in Rolen cured that problem. By the way, Encarnacion's supposed range was always a myth. And no, he would not be a good LF, or useful as a 1B. He always carried his defensive shortcomings to the plate with him and let it affect his bat.

    * Clearly Edwin was not very highly valued by all of baseball given that he was released by Toronto, signed by Oakland, and then released again to go back to Toronto all in the same offseason. That he was able to break out as a plus offensive player was a flukey find for Toronto.
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  12. #101
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    Re: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

    "Who got the better end of the deal?" and "Was it a good deal for the Reds?" are two different questions. We may have gotten the better end because the Jays were also too stupid to know what they had in Encarnacion, but that doesn't change the fact that the Reds would be better today had we not made the deal and kept EE instead.

  13. #102
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    Re: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

    Quote Originally Posted by kpresidente View Post
    "Who got the better end of the deal?" and "Was it a good deal for the Reds?" are two different questions. We may have gotten the better end because the Jays were also too stupid to know what they had in Encarnacion, but that doesn't change the fact that the Reds would be better today had we not made the deal and kept EE instead.
    Or dealt for a player(s) to help, or could have helped to, put this team over the top during the projected window of opportunity to realistically win a World Series. Read: 2012 forward.

    Either way, you -- and others --present a compelling argument that it was in the Reds best interest to keep EE.
    "I have just been more than a little suspect of all the trades since the Willy (Scott Williamson) cash grab. That one left such a bad taste in my mouth that even a 1985 Dom Pérignon couldn't cleanse it." -- Creek14

  14. #103
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    Re: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

    the projected window of opportunity to realistically win a World Series. Read: 2012 forward.
    Wrong. They made the postseason in 2010. While a longshot, any team in the baseball postseason can surprise. And Rolen was a major reason they got there.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  15. #104
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    Re: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

    Why is everyone on this thread underrating Zach Stewart? He will win MULTIPLE Cy Youngs, not just ONE (measly) Cy Young. Book it.
    Go BLUE!!!

  16. #105
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    * Comparing Edwin Encarnacion at the time of the trade to Rolen is laughable. Edwin was a marginally useful hitter and a black hole as a defender.
    2005-2009 ops

    Edwin: .744 / .831 / .794 / .807 / .729 ~.781 average

    Scott: .706 / .887 / .729 / .780 / .823 ~.785 average

    This is what I meant by their bats being comparable...that's all. I'm not saying Edwin is equal to Rolen. Rolen is the MUCH better player, teammate, defender and person. But the difference in their bats at the time of the trade was negligible. And one should've been expected to trend upward while the other should've been expected to trend downward going forward.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG


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