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Thread: MLB Lockout 2021-2022 Part 3

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    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    MLB Lockout 2021-2022 Part 3

    New thread

    Continue discussion of the lockout here
    Last edited by Ron Madden; 03-03-2022 at 11:47 AM.


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    Playoffs ?? !! goreds2's Avatar
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    MLB Lockout 2022 - When will it end?

    Continue Here:


    * Attended the 1990 and 2010 Reds Division clinchers *

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    Ron Madden (03-03-2022)

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    Re: MLB Lockout 2021-2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    I wish I could find the post that shows how much money teams like the Reds get from the CBT and Revenue Sharing.
    https://www.blessyouboys.com/2021/12...ow-to-solve-it
    Here is the link again

    The team received 91M from national money in 2018 and 118 of pooled local revenue (48% of local revenue that is shared equally)

    the Marlins doing the math (received 70M) so 118-70=48 (48% of local revenue) therefore local revenue (52%) not in the pool was around 52 million dollars
    The Marlins are the lowest revenue generating team and in 2018 Had 91M+118M+52M for 260M in revenue in 2018.
    The Rays the next lowest 118-50=68 (48%) 73.5M (52%). Rays revenue 91M+118M+73.5M for 281.5M in revenue in 2018

    Because the Rays were at 281.5 million means the Reds were even higher so using 50% on payroll to me is reasonable (NHL salary cap is based on 50% of revenue) So the Reds should be able to spend at least 140M on payroll to me and that is not even counting that they make more than the Rays and revenues today is higher than 2018 by a lot (mlb made 250M more in revenue in 2019 over 2018) Also the Reds were supposedly saving money during the rebuild to spend when they were better.

    Based on the 2018 numbers 125M payroll is a joke. Not as big of a joke as the Pirates Marlins Orioles ect

    Teams having payrolls less than the 91M they get in League generated pool (mostly National TV) is absurd Because I can not believe teams are not able to cover costs with local revenues.

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    Re: MLB Lockout 2022 - When will it end?

    Moderators, Ron Madden started a new thread just before I did. Please delete this thread that I started. Thank you,
    * Attended the 1990 and 2010 Reds Division clinchers *

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    Re: MLB Lockout 2022 - When will it end?

    Quote Originally Posted by goreds2 View Post
    Moderators, Ron Madden started a new thread just before I did. Please delete this thread that I started. Thank you,
    How about a merge?
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    Re: MLB Lockout 2021-2022 Part 3

    Deputy commissioner Dan Halem and MLBPA lead negotiator Bruce Meyer are expected to meet today at an “informal” one-on-one sitdown in New York, tweets Evan Drellich of The Athletic. It’ll be the first time since Commissioner Rob Manfred announced the cancellation of Opening Day earlier this week that representatives from the two parties have met in person.

    Chelsea Janes of the Washington Post tweets that, moving forward, the two parties hope to reduce some of the very public back-and-forth nature of prior talks and keep negotiations closer to the vest. Both the recent week-plus of negotiations in Jupiter, Fla. and the 2020 return-to-play negotiations were public spectacles, to varying extents.
    https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/...-thursday.html

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    Re: MLB Lockout 2021-2022 Part 3

    Some of the low-spending teams would argue - look, we’ll spend, meaningfully so.

    But we’re not in a market that can do that every year. We are going cheap now but still building the farm. That’s the way a mid-market team has to develop.

    Look at the Padres. From 2017-19, they were among the lower spending teams. Last year their OD payroll jumped to $174 million. They were ready to contend.

    There are a very few teams that seemingly never spend. But they are a small minority, most teams would argue that they just have to retrench fairly often to re-tool the club.

    It would certainly be better for the union if every team spent at a reasonably high level every year. But is it realistic?
    Last edited by Kc61; 03-03-2022 at 12:38 PM.

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    Re: MLB Lockout 2021-2022 Part 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Some of the low-spending teams would argue - look, we’ll spend, meaningfully so.

    But we’re not in a market that can do that every year. We are going cheap now but still building the farm. That’s the way a mid-market team has to develop.

    Look at the Padres. From 2017-19, they were among the lower spending teams. Last year their OD payroll jumped to $174 million. They were ready to contend.

    There are a very few teams that seemingly never spend. But they are a small minority, most teams would argue that they just have to retrench fairly often to re-tool the club.

    It would certainly be better for the union if every team spent at a reasonably high level every year. But is it realistic?
    I don't think the Union is concerned with the Padres as much as the Pirates, TB, and Oakland - especially the Pirates who never spend much and trade off their good players and have for 25 years.

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    Re: MLB Lockout 2021-2022 Part 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Some of the low-spending teams would argue - look, we’ll spend, meaningfully so.

    But we’re not in a market that can do that every year. We are going cheap now but still building the farm. That’s the way a mid-market team has to develop.

    Look at the Padres. From 2017-19, they were among the lower spending teams. Last year their OD payroll jumped to $174 million. They were ready to contend.

    There are a very few teams that seemingly never spend. But they are a small minority, most teams would argue that they just have to retrench fairly often to re-tool the club.

    It would certainly be better for the union if every team spent at a reasonably high level every year. But is it realistic?
    I really wonder what happened to the salary floor. talks Did the Pittsburghs, Cincinnatis and Clevelands of the league squash it immediately? I do think that slowly bringing the floor up to, say $80MM by 2025 would do wonders for the lower-salaried players. It could be a soft floor, and if you dropped below it you would lose draft picks or something.

    I really love the draft lottery plan as well. Multiple teams tanking is part of what is killing these players. I know the pandemic has been hard on these teams' bottom line but when a team is spending less than $40MM on total payroll it's a huge problem.

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    Re: MLB Lockout 2021-2022 Part 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Strikes Out Looking View Post
    I don't think the Union is concerned with the Padres as much as the Pirates, TB, and Oakland - especially the Pirates who never spend much and trade off their good players and have for 25 years.
    Can't really make the case that TB and Oakland don't want to compete. They do compete on the field

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    Re: MLB Lockout 2021-2022 Part 3

    Quick exercise here: can small markets compete?

    First, let's define small markets. I'll go with a big tent. Here's a television market list - https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba...elsen-ratings/. If you set 1.5 million homes as a cutoff, there's only seven small market teams in MLB. Toronto isn't on that list, but it's a large city. Yet I'm going to be generous and throw Cleveland, Tampa Bay and Oakland into the pile of small markets, just because they behave that way. But the Marlins can stuff it with their sob story. I drink your neon-colored tears. That gets us to 10 small market teams.

    Now let's take a look at how these small markets have done over the past decade in terms of performance, starting from the bottom and moving up.

    Milwaukee - 6 winnings records, 4 playoffs, 2 division titles
    Cincinnati - 4 winning records, 3 playoffs, 1 division title
    Kansas City - 3 winning records, 2 playoffs, 1 division title, 2 pennants, 1 World Series
    Baltimore - 4 winning records, 3 playoffs, 1 division title
    San Diego - 1 winning record, 1 playoff
    Pittsburgh - 4 winning records, 3 playoffs
    St. Louis - 10 winning records, 7 playoffs, 4 division titles, 1 pennant
    Cleveland - 8 winning records, 5 playoffs, 3 division titles, 1 pennant
    Tampa Bay - 6 winning records, 4 playoffs, 2 division titles, 1 pennant
    Oakland - 7 winnings records, 6 playoffs, 3 division titles

    The have winning records more than half the time (53%). They're made the playoffs 38 times (33 would be their expected number). Where they've slightly underperformed is pennants (5 out of an expected 7) and World Series wins (1 out of an expected 3).

    So, a fair reading of the MLB competitive landscape would be that it is highly competitive. Small market teams have an issue with getting over the final hump, but a lot of that can be chalked up to them not spending their revenue sharing money. San Diego, which recently cut the purse strings and started spending some money will be an interesting one to watch in the coming years. They're the ones testing the theory that dipping into that cash stockpile can lead to bigger prizes.
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    Re: MLB Lockout 2021-2022 Part 3

    Small markets can compete but it's hard. As I stated earlier, high spending teams do much better in terms of winning records. In the past decade the Dodgers, Yankees and Cardinals have had zero yrs under .500. None

    One of the ways they can compete is with rules like 3 yrs till arbitration and 6 yrs till free agency. They can't water those rules down

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    Re: MLB Lockout 2021-2022 Part 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Small markets can compete but it's hard. As I stated earlier, high spending teams do much better in terms of winning records. In the past decade the Dodgers, Yankees and Cardinals have had zero yrs under .500. None

    One of the ways they can compete is with rules like 3 yrs till arbitration and 6 yrs till free agency. They can't water those rules down
    But StL is a smaller market, about the same as the Reds. You could argue it's even smaller if you look at the number of people within a 90-mile radius.

    Markets are different. That's part of the beauty of this country (and this league). The Reds will always be an underdog in some regards compared to the Yankees and Dodgers, even if they enforced each team to have the same exact salary. Small markets need to get more creative, utilize every penny of revenue sharing they receive and build winners in spite of their market defencencies. I'm a bit tired of the excuses being made.

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    Re: MLB Lockout 2021-2022 Part 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Small markets can compete but it's hard. As I stated earlier, high spending teams do much better in terms of winning records. In the past decade the Dodgers, Yankees and Cardinals have had zero yrs under .500. None

    One of the ways they can compete is with rules like 3 yrs till arbitration and 6 yrs till free agency. They can't water those rules down
    A) St Louis isn't a large market like LA or New York.

    B) Other large markets HAVE had losing seasons in the last ten years:


    Boston has had 4

    Toronto 5

    White Sox 7

    Houston 4

    Angels 7

    Texas 6

    Atlanta 4

    Philly 7

    Mets 7

    Washington 2

    SF 4

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    Re: MLB Lockout 2021-2022 Part 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Small markets can compete but it's hard. As I stated earlier, high spending teams do much better in terms of winning records. In the past decade the Dodgers, Yankees and Cardinals have had zero yrs under .500. None

    One of the ways they can compete is with rules like 3 yrs till arbitration and 6 yrs till free agency. They can't water those rules down

    Not sure you can measure the small market experience just by measuring successes or going back ten years.

    Reds recently lost 381 games over a four year period.
    Pirates have been over .500 once since 2015.
    Royals highest winning PCT in last four seasons was .457.
    Before 2020 Padres had nine straight years below .500.
    Last five years Orioles’ most wins was 75 in 2017.

    Is it a coincidence that they are all mid-markets?
    Last edited by Kc61; 03-03-2022 at 01:48 PM.

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