Big Red Machine

[Ltlabner]

I'm getting ready to start watching the 1975 World Series DVD's I got for my father. I can't wait.

What do you think was the main key to the BRM's success? Something deeper than "tallent". Lots of teams have raw tallent but don't get it together.

There are lots of ingredients to choose from. I'd have to say it was the competitive nature of the players involved. They competed against each other as much as they competed against other teams and it pushed them to higher levels of success. Their scary wicked tallent helped but this competitive nature (or raw ego) sparked the increased performance and play on the field IMO.

Sparky would be my second place. Being able to manage all those egos and motivate them too.

What do you think ?

[Johnny Footstool]

Talent.

The BRM managed to put together a collection of incredibly talented players on offense, defense, and the mound.

The defense and Sparky Anderson's talent for managing a bullpen allowed the Reds to keep every game close -- close enough for the incredible offense to win it.

Also, timing (which is lucky). The pitching staff peaked at exactly the right time. Foster blossomed late for his age, but it turned out to be perfect.

[Hap]

four gold glovers in the middle (c, ss, 2b, cf)

[Heath]

Dude - you bought stuff for your dad and you are taking it out of the package?

That's a Seinfeld no-no.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by Heath

Dude - you bought stuff for your dad and you are taking it out of the package?

That's a Seinfeld no-no.

He's already watched them. I got them for him for Fathers Day.

[IowaRed]

Unbelievable talent, power, speed, D, underrated pitching. Combination of youngsters and veterans, desire, and supreme confidence.

[westofyou]

Secondary Average and Power with the stick

Gloves and speed for the defense.

BTW no NL team bunted less and struck out more then the Reds in the 70's.

[cumberlandreds]

They had the talent and most importantly the leaders of that team had a great desire to win. They made sure everyone stayed on course.
Defense was great and very underated. Up the middle was solid gold with Bench,Concepcion,Morgan and Geronimo. Sparky was the perfect fit to be manager. He knew how to deal with the egos and he let the players in on the decision making at least to a point. I can remember Bench saying he was shocked the first time Sparky came to the mound and asked Bench what was the best way to pitch the batter. Bench said after that he always had great respect for Sparky.
Speed also played a huge part. Almost everyone could steal a base and that kept the pressure on the opponent pitchers besides having to worry about the obvious power they had.
The relief pitching was great too. In 1975 you had four you could plug into almost any spot,Carroll,Borbon,McEnaney and Eastwick.
I think everything just came together near perfect. The great players that had power and speed,very good starting pitching,excellent bullpen and a great manager.

[RED59]

The clutch bat of Perez and the health of Gary Nolan.

Tony was one of the best at getting the important RBIs. Others on the team had more, but Tony's won more games.

One thing many forget about the BRM is when Nolan was healthy, they were in the World Series. When he was unable to pitch, they did not make it. He is vastly underated. Before his arm problems, he was one of the best. An argument can be made for him over Tom Seaver for rookie of year.

[cumberlandreds]

Originally Posted by RED59

The clutch bat of Perez and the health of Gary Nolan.

Tony was one of the best at getting the important RBIs. Others on the team had more, but Tony's won more games.

One thing many forget about the BRM is when Nolan was healthy, they were in the World Series. When he was unable to pitch, they did not make it. He is vastly underated. Before his arm problems, he was one of the best. An argument can be made for him over Tom Seaver for rookie of year.

Perez was the true leader of the BRM. I've heard he was responsible for keeping Rose,Bench and Morgan's ego's in check in the clubhouse. He also was like a father figure or at least a big brother to the young Latin America players like Concepcion and Geronimo. The downfall of the BRM was when Howsam traded Perez after the 1976 season. Howsam never realized until it was too late how valuable Perez was.

[westofyou]

The downfall of the BRM was when Howsam traded Perez after the 1976 season. Howsam never realized until it was too late how valuable Perez was.

I'll say the downfall was crappy pitching, the 1977 Reds and 1978 Reds all scored and fielded like the 75-76 Reds, the pitching tanked big time.

Maybe the clubhouse WAS diffrent, but losing on the pitching side more then usual can create the feeling of differece.

Here's the Reds team ERA vs the league during Sparky's reign.

CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
1970-1978

ERA                           YEAR     DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE   
1    Reds                     1977     -.30     4.22     3.91   
2    Reds                     1978     -.24     3.82     3.58   
3    Reds                     1976     0.00     3.51     3.50   
4    Reds                     1971     0.12     3.35     3.47   
5    Reds                     1974     0.21     3.42     3.63   
6    Reds                     1973     0.24     3.43     3.67   
7    Reds                     1972     0.24     3.21     3.46   
8    Reds                     1975     0.27     3.37     3.63   
9    Reds                     1970     0.35     3.70     4.05

[cumberlandreds]

Originally Posted by westofyou

I'll say the downfall was crappy pitching, the 1977 Reds and 1978 Reds all scored and fielded like the 75-76 Reds, the pitching tanked big time.

Maybe the clubhouse WAS diffrent, but losing on the pitching side more then usual can create the feeling of differece.

Here's the Reds team ERA vs the league during Sparky's reign.

CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
1970-1978

ERA                           YEAR     DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE   
1    Reds                     1977     -.30     4.22     3.91   
2    Reds                     1978     -.24     3.82     3.58   
3    Reds                     1976     0.00     3.51     3.50   
4    Reds                     1971     0.12     3.35     3.47   
5    Reds                     1974     0.21     3.42     3.63   
6    Reds                     1973     0.24     3.43     3.67   
7    Reds                     1972     0.24     3.21     3.46   
8    Reds                     1975     0.27     3.37     3.63   
9    Reds                     1970     0.35     3.70     4.05

I should have said the start of the downfall was trading Perez. Yes, bad pitching in 1977 was a huge factor.

[Johnny Footstool]

Originally Posted by cumberlandreds

I should have said the start of the downfall was trading Perez. Yes, bad pitching in 1977 was a huge factor.

Trading Perez made the players angry, so to hear them tell it, that was the beginning of the end. But it seem that if they were such well-adjusted leaders, they wouldn't have let it affect their performance on the field. As woy pointed out in this thread and several times in the past, they didn't -- at least the hitters didn't.

The beginning of the end was the loss of Gullett to the Yankees due to free agency. In the years following, the Reds were forced to let Griffey, Foster, Rose, and Morgan leave as free agents, getting only supplemental draft picks in return. Couple that with several poor drafts and the inability to develop pitchers (Soto excluded), and you get the early-80's Big Red Disaster.

[Tony Cloninger]

I think it was the clean cut look....along with the high socks.

Bring back that look and you have got a winner.


I still think the beginning of FA.....when a lot of Reds players during that 1976 off-season were talking about getting theirs and not being respected.....and then comes that Perez trade.... you have the feeling that some of those starters did not feel very appreciated by the FO. From time to time during 1977 and especially 1978.... some players (Rose in a 1979 SPORT magazine interview) talked about how some players could have put out more, and maybe Sparky would not have been fired. I guess that's the "little things" or intangibles that people talk about...but seem to be missing from some of the players during those 2 years.

If you look at 1978 from July onwards......the hitting just went south, thanks in part to Vic Correll and Don Werner at C instead of Bench.....and Geronimo not hitting at all, neither did Ken Henderson or Mike Lum. Griffey hit about .280, not bad for that time, but he was not a HR hitter, he needed to hit .300+ to be productive at the top. Driessen lost his stroke after two HBP on the hand. Morgan was also hurt......unproductive when he was in..... TOO much Junior Kennedy.

Bullpen was atrocious.... Tomlin, Borbon and Sarmiento were like Weathers, Hammond and White.

So many variables..... you can even throw in the bad 72-73 drafts....as there were no real good prospects ready to step in to help, even on the bench.

Having Kuhn impose his "best interest of the game" clause when they tried to get Blue for Revering did not help........ THAT may have been the bottom line reason they did not win that year.

Despite the run differential ....all the injuries..... they had no business even contending if you looked at the numbers.

I remember that year and 1977 more than 75-76....it seems fresher in my memory for some reason. I must like negativity.....i read through game threads...so it must be so.

[westofyou]

The beginning of the end was the loss of Gullett to the Yankees due to free agency.

Fresh off the 1976 title the free agent draft started, rather than pick players like most of the league the Reds decide to address their picks with a single statement and a stance that would hamstring the team in the early eighties as they faced a rebuild. the statement was this:

“In fairness to the players who have won the World Championship for us two years in a row and considering how our organization is structured. We do not think it would right for the Cincinnati organization to get into the bidding contests that must come out of this draft.”

Add the fact that Howsam hated Perez's agent (who also was Eastwicks) and you can see how resistance to the new economic structure slowed the team down, if they had played the market correctly they could have patched up holes with FA's and maybe won 2 more titles in the 70's.