An Adam Dunn did you know?

[44Magnum]

Adam Dunn is the Reds career leader in HR's per at bat ratio with 14.4.

I'm as frustrated as anyone with Dunn, but I thought I would try and be positive.

[mroby85]

dunn has power, there is no doubting that, but there definately is doubt when it comes to his abillity as a pure hitter.

[Always Red]

Originally Posted by mroby85

dunn has power, there is no doubting that, but there definately is doubt when it comes to his abillity as a pure hitter.

what is a "pure hitter"?

[rotnoid]

Originally Posted by Always Red

what is a "pure hitter"?

You got me thinking, so I did a google search for "pure hitter." After I got past the ads for a training device called the Pure Hitter, I found a debate on the difference between a pure hitter and a professional hitter. The argument seems to be whether there is a difference or not. The best explanation I could find was basically that pure hitters have natural talent and professional hitters are made by practice. I'm not sure how you can tell the difference at the majors among the top hitters in the game, but one site said that pure hitters could roll out of bed Christmas morning and hit line drives up the middle. There's no statistical evidence here, it's mostly speculation and opinion. So, I'm guessing we should call up Dunn after opening up the stocking next December 25 and see if he wants to take some BP.

Perhaps the only way to see the difference between pure hitters and professional hitters is to go to a little league field. The kid swatting dingers in tee ball could be a pure hitter. The kid missing the tee and hurting dad in the groin, (while he earns $10,000 for America's funniest home video), probably is not. Of course, this all presupposes a natural ability to hit. It's nature versus nurture on a sports stage. Which is right? Don't ask me, I'm just trying to spark conversation...

[SunDeck]

Originally Posted by Always Red

what is a "pure hitter"?

Clemente
Pujols
Williams

Those are the kinds of guys I think of- tough, tough outs, who hit the ball no matter where it is and who are always a threat to go deep. I think of guys against whom there is no out pitch.

I'll have to rely on my pop's memory of Clemente, but he said he saw him do all of those things; take an outside pitch and punch it over the opposite field wall with his back foot of the ground kinds of things.

[George Foster]

I want Dunn to be successful, I really do. My team needs for him to be successful. We can debate stats all day long, but when the game is on the line, in the 9th, with the winning run on third, 2 out, I don't want him batting. Do you?

[Marge'sMullet]

Originally Posted by George Foster

I want Dunn to be successful, I really do. My team needs for him to be successful. We can debate stats all day long, but when the game is on the line, in the 9th, with the winning run on third, 2 out, I don't want him batting. Do you?

LOL, I would rather have Javier batting.


MY argument about Dunn is this. HAS HE IMPROVED OVER HIS 6 YEARS IN THE MARJORS? THE ANSWER IS........NO, HE HAS NOT. NOT IN ONE AREA OF THE GAME.
Guys I'm not just talking JUST about batting. He hasn't improved in fielding or base running. The guy is 27 years old. We should be seeing his best. His best was in 2004. Adam Dunn's "career year".

He hasn't learned anything anything anything. He continues to make all the same mistakes year after year. Swing at bad pitches out of the zone and watching the ones rights down broadway for strike three. Maybe he has a learning disability or two.

[mroby85]

a guy that can get runners over, or hit a sac fly when you need it. basically a guy that handles the bat well and hits for a good average. I believe that term was used by Ted Williams.

[Always Red]

Originally Posted by mroby85

a guy that can get runners over, or hit a sac fly when you need it. basically a guy that handles the bat well and hits for a good average. I believe that term was used by Ted Williams.

Well, I agree that Dunn doesn't do things very well. He does create a lot of runs for the Reds, though.

[TeamBoone]

Originally Posted by Always Red

Well, I agree that Dunn doesn't do things very well. He does create a lot of runs for the Reds, though.

Not according to Marty... yesterday he stressed (and repeated) that he's a non-run producer. I argued the point on the game thread the same as you... I believe he's led the team in RBI for the past three years.

No one responded.

[Always Red]

Originally Posted by TeamBoone

Not according to Marty... yesterday he stressed (and repeated) that he's a non-run producer. I argued the point on the game thread the same as you... I believe he's led the team in RBI for the past three years.

No one responded.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...C_active.shtml

TB, I love Marty, and I agree with about 80% of what he says. The above link is a list of all active MLB players ranked by Runs Created (RC).

The only player who is Dunn's age who has created more runs than him is Sir Albert, who is truly an incredible hitter. No one younger than Dunn has created more runs than Adam has, and only Pujols has "out RC'd" him.

Marty is wrong about this. I understand his frustration with Dunn. The thing that frustrates me the most about Adam is when he takes a called 3rd strike with RISP. I don't have numbers on it, but it happens enough that I notice it, and a poster mentioned it yesterday also, IIRC.

[Redsland]

Originally Posted by Always Red

The thing that frustrates me the most about Adam is when he takes a called 3rd strike with RISP. I don't have numbers on it, but it happens enough that I notice it, and a poster mentioned it yesterday also, IIRC.

I don't have numbers on it, either, but here are some three-year splits for Dunn with RISP and overall.

With RISP:	Overall:
AB: 407		1,672
RBI: 177	295
BB: 139		334
K: 134		557
AVG: .236	.249
OBP: .434	.380
SLG: .538	.533
OPS: .972	.913

Okay, what do we see?

First of all, when there are RISP, Adam gets an RBI every 2.3 AB (177/407). Overall, it takes him 5.7 AB to get an RBI (295/1,672). That means that the people who say he only drives in himself are dead wrong.

Secondly, we see that with RISP, Dunn gets a walk every 2.9 AB (139/407). Overall it takes him 5.0 AB to work a walk (334/1,672). That means Adam is getting pitched around whenever there are RISP, which should surprise no one. It also shows that Adam has the discipline to take a base when one is offered.

Thirdly, and this is very interesting, when there are RISP, Adam strikes out once every 3.0 AB (134/407). Overall, Adam strikes out once every (wait for it) 3.0 AB (557/1,672). Look at that again. There’s no change at all in the rate. He’s not choking. He’s not flailing. And the results speak for themselves in the final four lines above. Or at least they should. With RISP, he adds 54 points to his OBP and 59 points to his OPS.

[TeamBoone]

Originally Posted by Always Red

http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...C_active.shtml

The only player who is Dunn's age who has created more runs than him is Sir Albert, who is truly an incredible hitter. No one younger than Dunn has created more runs than Adam has, and only Pujols has "out RC'd" him.

Marty is wrong about this. I understand his frustration with Dunn. The thing that frustrates me the most about Adam is when he takes a called 3rd strike with RISP. I don't have numbers on it, but it happens enough that I notice it, and a poster mentioned it yesterday also, IIRC.

I wish SOMEONE would inform him of this with enough authority or stats backup that he'd believe it. I would have loved to have seen him put on the spot about it during the rain delay.

[Yachtzee]

Originally Posted by TeamBoone

Not according to Marty... yesterday he stressed (and repeated) that he's a non-run producer. I argued the point on the game thread the same as you... I believe he's led the team in RBI for the past three years.

No one responded.

It always seems to be the way when talking about Dunn. Some folks will look at Ks and BARISP, but conveniently ignore the fact that he leads the team in important categories like not making outs and scoring runs. Raise that fact and people go quiet or redirect. He's not the perfect hitter, but to say he's not a run producer is willful ignorance.

The more I think about it, the more I think guys like Marty don't like Ks because it looks embarrassing rather than any kind of time spend determining whether Ks are worse than any other kind of out.

[RichRed]

Originally Posted by Yachtzee

The more I think about it, the more I think guys like Marty don't like Ks because it looks embarrassing rather than any kind of time spend determining whether Ks are worse than any other kind of out.

"The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings."

--Rob Neyer