Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

[reds44]

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64873

I'd go:
1. Edwin
2. Phillips
3. Griffey
4. Dunn

What would your list be?

[Cedric]

Oh crap here comes the clutch debate. AGAIN.

[SteelSD]

Not enough information to respond as "clutch" hasn't been defined for the poll. Without that, the study is a complete mess.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

Not enough information to respond as "clutch" hasn't been defined for the poll. Without that, the study is a complete mess.

Performing well in pressure situations.

I think it is a well known definition, not one that needs an equation to define it.

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Performing well in pressure situations.

I think it is a well known definition, not one that needs an equation to define it.

Measured by....? Batting Average? RBI? Game winning RBI? OPS? Non-Strikeouts? Not being Adam Dunn?

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

Measure by....? Batting Average? RBI? Game winning RBI? OPS? Non-Strikeouts?

Performance based on the situation.

I think this new stat era has to come to grips that everything doesn't have to be measured by a stat. Everyone wants to come up with the equation that trumps the previous one. Everyone wants to come up with the number that defines production.

Maybe it doesn't exist in some instances, especially for something so subjective like "clutchness." If someone comes up with one out in the 9th, down one, men on first and third and one out and takes Mariano Rivera to 14 pitches and finally hits one in the hole where they can't turn two and the run scores, would you say that it clutch?

I think clutch is doing what you set out to do in that given situation when the pressure is on. Reliever comes in during the 8th inning, up one, one out and a man on third. He knows he needs a K, pop up, short fly ball or ground out. Succeeding there is pretty clutch. Getting a fly ball to the warning track isn't really what you set out to do in that situation, though you still got the batter out. Launching one over the catcher's head is also less than clutch.

Personally, I think clutchness is determined better by observing the games and situations that take place during the season. A single in the 5th inning of a blowout shouldn't count as much as a single with the bases loaded, down 2 in the 9th with 2 out. People tend to remember big situations and people coming through in those games. That's where clutchness should be measured, situations rather than a number.

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Performance based on the situation.

I think this new stat era has to come to grips that everything doesn't have to be measured by a stat. Everyone wants to come up with the equation that trumps the previous one. Everyone wants to come up with the number that defines production.

Maybe it doesn't exist in some instances, especially for something so subjective like "clutchness." If someone comes up with one out in the 9th, down one, men on first and third and one out and takes Mariano Rivera to 14 pitches and finally hits one in the hole where they can't turn two and the run scores, would you say that it clutch?

I think clutch is doing what you set out to do in that given situation when the pressure is on. Reliever comes in during the 8th inning, up one, one out and a man on third. He knows he needs a K, pop up, short fly ball or ground out. Succeeding there is pretty clutch. Getting a fly ball to the warning track isn't really what you set out to do in that situation, though you still got the batter out. Launching one over the catcher's head is also less than clutch.

Personally, I think clutchness is determined better by observing the games and situations that take place during the season. A single in the 5th inning of a blowout shouldn't count as much as a single with the bases loaded, down 2 in the 9th with 2 out. People tend to remember big situations and people coming through in those games. That's where clutchness should be measured, situations rather than a number.

Ok, back to the point of my post then. How do you intend to compare players to arrive at a conclusion on who is the most clutch, by your definition.

You say it should be measured, but you don't want to use a number to do it. Maybe you prefer a color or sound... And if you really don't want to measure it, how exactly should we compare players on their clutchiness?

[paulrichjr]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

Measured by....? Batting Average? RBI? Game winning RBI? OPS? Non-Strikeouts? Not being Adam Dunn?

But....one of the greatest examples of clutch in the history of this team was the grand slam by Dunn off of the Indians. Just incredible to watch.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by paulrichjr

But....one of the greatest examples of clutch in the history of this team was the grand slam by Dunn off of the Indians. Just incredible to watch.

But instances like that would have to happen more frequently for that player to be clutch.

[KronoRed]

[Topcat]

Clutch can be defined as a simple fact. Batter who we will call Bunk comes to the plate in his first 5 years in the majors in the 7th inning and on with 2 outs and runners in scoring positions that will lead to his team taking the lead and bats a combined 500 over a qualified amount of at bats of 650 at bats.

Ya ok I'M kidding lol.

[WMR]

George Grande defines clutch as "JIM EDMONDS."

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS

George Grande defines eternal love as "JIM EDMONDS."

Fixed that for you.

[oneupper]

Without getting too much into the "clutch" debate, I think Edwin's hitting style makes him "clutch", regardless of "state of mind" or "mental toughness" considerations (which the pundits like to refer to).

As a right-handed pull hitter, Edwin puts a LOT of balls into the hole on the left side. He can even pull pitches quite a bit outside into that hole, due to his bat speed.
Put runners on second and third or even better load the bases...and with the shortstop and third baseman playing near their bags...that hole is HUGE.

So, it shouldn't surprise us that Edwin is "clutch", in those situations...he just hits that way. (Well, at least that's what I think).

[PuffyPig]

Originally Posted by oneupper

As a right-handed pull hitter, Edwin puts a LOT of balls into the hole on the left side. He can even pull pitches quite a bit outside into that hole, due to his bat speed.
Put runners on second and third or even better load the bases...and with the shortstop and third baseman playing near their bags...that hole is HUGE.

So, it shouldn't surprise us that Edwin is "clutch", in those situations...he just hits that way. (Well, at least that's what I think).

Which explains why EE routinely has the highest batting average in the league, because he gets so many hits into that hole.......

I have no idea what the placement of EE`s hits has to his clutchness.

Question: What bag is the SS playing close to, as the secondbaseman would be covering 2nd if there was a runner on first.