Who will have the better career...Votto or Bruce?

[fearofpopvol1]

And why?

You can define better any way you like. Some may define that by home runs, OPS, batting average, RBIs, defense...whatever.

[Degenerate39]

I really don't know but I voted Votto. He just seems like the more complete player but I still love Bruce

[OnBaseMachine]

First of all, I think both of them are going to be great players for a long time and I'm excited to have them both on the Reds. With that said, to answer your question, I like Jay Bruce a little better in the long term. Jay is a little raw right now but once he smoothes things out, he's going to be a superstar, IMO. I know some people may be down on him right now because he's struggling, but we need to remember that he's only 22 years old. Joey Votto was in Double-A when he was 22.

[lollipopcurve]

Votto.

Better understanding of what it takes to excel.

[Razor Shines]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

Votto.

Better understanding of what it takes to excel.

How's that? Jay's been better at every level and got to the Bigs 2 years younger. What is it, from your knowledge of these two, that Joey understands that Jay doesn't?

[Dan]

To my mind, the best predictor of long-term success is BB/K ratio. (Note that # of Ks doesn't matter) Votto throughout his career has a much better BB/K ratio than Bruce. This means in general he gets better at bats than Bruce does. I think Bruce hits for more power, but he'll wind up with a career arc similar to a Geoff Jenkins or Jeromy Burnitz while Votto will be along the lines of a J.T. Snow or (dating myself) Wally Joyner or even Will Clark.

[RedEye]

Originally Posted by Dan

To my mind, the best predictor of long-term success is BB/K ratio. (Note that # of Ks doesn't matter) Votto throughout his career has a much better BB/K ratio than Bruce. This means in general he gets better at bats than Bruce does. I think Bruce hits for more power, but he'll wind up with a career arc similar to a Geoff Jenkins or Jeromy Burnitz while Votto will be along the lines of a J.T. Snow or (dating myself) Wally Joyner or even Will Clark.

Jeez... with the possible exception of Will Clark, I really hope Joey and Jay have better careers than that list of guys!

[Dan]

Originally Posted by RedEye

Jeez... with the possible exception of Will Clark, I really hope Joey and Jay have better careers than that list of guys!

Looking at Clark's #'s, they aren't much better than Joyner's, but I believe definitely comparable to what Votto will contribute throughout his career.

[OnBaseMachine]

Originally Posted by Dan

To my mind, the best predictor of long-term success is BB/K ratio. (Note that # of Ks doesn't matter) Votto throughout his career has a much better BB/K ratio than Bruce. This means in general he gets better at bats than Bruce does. I think Bruce hits for more power, but he'll wind up with a career arc similar to a Geoff Jenkins or Jeromy Burnitz while Votto will be along the lines of a J.T. Snow or (dating myself) Wally Joyner or even Will Clark.

Geoff Jenkins or Jeromy Burnitz? Really?

I think Bruce is waaaay closer to Larry Walker than Geoff Jenkins.

[lollipopcurve]

What is it, from your knowledge of these two, that Joey understands that Jay doesn't?

Votto has an exceptional work ethic and he has always been a student of hitting. He has talked about maintaining focus better this year on an at-bat by at-bat basis. He clearly wants to excel (and prove people wrong -- he felt he was kept in the minors too long) and demands improvements from himself. Not a knock on Bruce, but he impresses more as a guy who plays by instinct. He has been slow to make adjustments -- the swing is still pretty long at times, and he has talked more than once, even this year, about "doing what got me here." It's important to have confidence, as he does, but it's also important to keep learning.

Bruce may have more natural talent (Votto has plenty), but eventually that fades, and the guy who is the exceptional worker and student will have more staying power. Just my opinion.

[RedEye]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

Votto has an exceptional work ethic and he has always been a student of hitting. He has talked about maintaining focus better this year on an at-bat by at-bat basis. He clearly wants to excel (and prove people wrong -- he felt he was kept in the minors too long) and demands improvements from himself. Not a knock on Bruce, but he impresses more as a guy who plays by instinct. He has been slow to make adjustments -- the swing is still pretty long at times, and he has talked more than once, even this year, about "doing what got me here." It's important to have confidence, as he does, but it's also important to keep learning.

Bruce may have more natural talent (Votto has plenty), but eventually that fades, and the guy who is the exceptional worker and student will have more staying power. Just my opinion.

Wasn't Votto's age 22 season the year he "figured it out" at AA and really exceled? If so, I would imagine that Bruce could have something like that in his future, too. Unlike most players, he just didn't hit his wall until the major leagues. Sometimes it takes finding out that you still have something to learn before you become a true student of the game.

[Razor Shines]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

Votto has an exceptional work ethic and he has always been a student of hitting. He has talked about maintaining focus better this year on an at-bat by at-bat basis. He clearly wants to excel (and prove people wrong -- he felt he was kept in the minors too long) and demands improvements from himself. Not a knock on Bruce, but he impresses more as a guy who plays by instinct. He has been slow to make adjustments -- the swing is still pretty long at times, and he has talked more than once, even this year, about "doing what got me here." It's important to have confidence, as he does, but it's also important to keep learning.

Bruce may have more natural talent (Votto has plenty), but eventually that fades, and the guy who is the exceptional worker and student will have more staying power. Just my opinion.

I don't know, maybe you're right, but I don't think you really have an idea of who works harder. How do we know that Jay isn't the harder worker? How do we know that Jay isn't a student of hitting? Because Joey gives better answers in interviews? What would Joey have looked like at age 22 in the big leagues? Would he have been slow to make adjustments? Yes, talent fades, Jay's got about ten years before it starts fading though. I don't like the idea that Jay's already getting the label of "not an exceptional worker" when none of us really know how hard any of these guys work.

[bucksfan2]

Votto will be a better average hitter with a higher OBP. I think Bruce will put up better power numbers but lack a little in the average and OBP. Votto at this point in his career looks to be in complete control at the plate. Bruce, while younger, looks lost. I think the main difference between Votto and Bruce right now is that Bruce gives up too many swings. He makes outs on hitters pitches and he constantly is behind in the count. If Bruce needs to change this before he takes that next step.

IMO if both stay at their current positions they will become the GG caliber there. If Votto moves to LF then Bruce will have a huge advantage defensively. Votto has the ability to become Pujols or Lee like at 1b which is a very very good thing.

[lollipopcurve]

I don't know, maybe you're right, but I don't think you really have an idea of who works harder. How do we know that Jay isn't the harder worker? How do we know that Jay isn't a student of hitting? Because Joey gives better answers in interviews? What would Joey have looked like at age 22 in the big leagues? Would he have been slow to make adjustments? Yes, talent fades, Jay's got about ten years before it starts fading though. I don't like the idea that Jay's already getting the label of "not an exceptional worker" when none of us really know how hard any of these guys work.

Relying on anecdotal evidence here, and there's plenty to suggest Votto's work ethic is exceptional, while there is little, if any, that indicates the same about Bruce. Bruce had never really experienced adversity until he hit a rough patch in the bigs last year, so its understandable that he might think the game comes easy.

Perhaps a more palatable argument for you would be to point out, as others have noted, the plate approach and swing mechanics of Votto -- partly a result, I would say, of his study -- are superior to Bruce's. Unless Bruce makes adjustments -- and he has not shown much of a knack for it yet -- he'll never see the level of major league performance Votto's putting up right now, in my opinion.

[OnBaseMachine]

Go check out some of the scouting reports on Jay Bruce from Baseball America. They praise his work ethic.