Deleting Posts

[camisadelgolf]

It may seem like I'm beating a dead horse here, but this isn't intended to be the same thread that *BaseClogger* started. A lot of times, when there is a questionable post or two, instead of editing the individual posts, the entire thread will be closed. Personally, I think it makes more sense to reprimand those who made the inappropriate posts than to ruin a discussion for the entire board. That's just my two cents.

Here is the most recent example: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1988560

Instead of locking the thread, I think the posts could have been edited or deleted. Personally, I had some things I wanted to add to thread (mostly anti-sexist remarks), but now I am unable to do so.

What do you all think? How would you like to see these kinds of situations handled?

[paintmered]

If you had a problem with what I did, you should have sent me a PM like I said in the closed thread. But no, you need to continue your grandstanding.

The thread went off topic and was filled with inappropriate comments and posts when it was on topic. Of course it should have been closed, and it should have been closed sooner than it was.

If you have more that you need to say on the topic of sexism, start a new thread (one that is not attached to the Steve Phillips story or anyone involved with it).

[camisadelgolf]

Originally Posted by paintmered

If you had a problem with what I did, you should have sent me a PM like I said in the closed thread. But no, you need to continue your grandstanding.

The thread went off topic and was filled with inappropriate comments and posts when it was on topic. Of course it should have been closed, and it should have been closed sooner than it was.

If you have more that you need to say on the topic of sexism, start a new thread (one that is not attached to the Steve Phillips story or anyone involved with it).

I'm not attacking you nor your action. In fact, I'm not even saying I necessarily disagree with it. I'm just saying that in my personal opinion, it generally makes more sense to modify individual posts it they're inappropriate as opposed to closing an entire thread. I'm not 'grandstanding', and it's unfair that you would accuse me of that.

Besides, what good would a PM have done? I started this thread in an effort to improve the site--not to have a personal discussion with you.

[paintmered]

Originally Posted by camisadelgolf

I'm not attacking you nor your action. In fact, I'm not even saying I necessarily disagree with it. I'm just saying that in my personal opinion, it generally makes more sense to modify individual posts it they're inappropriate as opposed to closing an entire thread. I'm not 'grandstanding', and it's unfair that you would accuse me of that.

Besides, what good would a PM have done? I started this thread in an effort to improve the site--not to have a personal discussion with you.

What do you have to say that hasn't been said in the recent thread on the exact same topic? To point out that I closed another thread?

And I actually agree with you on deleting posts vs. closing threads. All of the mods do. But we also have thresholds where we consider threads to be beyond rehabilitation and I considered the thread yesterday to exceed that threshold.

[camisadelgolf]

Originally Posted by paintmered

What do you have to say that hasn't been said in the recent thread on the exact same topic? To point out that I closed another thread?

And I actually agree with you on deleting posts vs. closing threads. All of the mods do. But we also have thresholds where we consider threads to be beyond rehabilitation and I considered the thread yesterday to exceed that threshold.

Just so it's clear, I wasn't singling you out. The only reason I brought up your example is because it was the most recent one, and to be honest, it was very understandable that you did it--I might've done the same in the same scenario. I'm not criticizing the moderators. The only thing I want to bring up is that it might do the site some good if the protocol were reviewed and possibly changed.

I'm surprised to hear you say that all of the mods agree with me on the topic because I've seen a lot of threads become locked prematurely--by my estimation, of course. But again, it's not a criticism. When I bring up this topic, I have nothing but the site's best interest in mind. I think it would be great if there were more of a defined line in the guidelines, possibly something similar or identical to what Brutus the Pimp is saying.

[redsfandan]

Originally Posted by jojo

BTW, I don't think the mods are being defensive. They are doing their job and they are right that questioning their moderation really should be done via PM IMHO (actually Boss has indicated the mechanism that we all should use when addressing a specific decision is that the individual involved should PM the mod).

There is a way that questions about procedure can be openly discussed-there are several threads in the archives where just that has been done in great detail (presumably you've already spent a great deal of time reading the archives so maybe you've seen a few such threads?). Questioning a specific action in a public fashion probably is rarely appropriate IMHO. I approach this issue with an obvious bias-I think we're extremely lucky to have the moderation that we have on redszone as I think without it, the quality of discussion we get to enjoy simply wouldn't be possible. In other words, I think they (the mods) should enjoy a certain respect in the way we question their decisions.

Sometimes it's felt to me like a mod/mods was/were being defensive but since you've been around longer than I have I'll just have to take your word for it.

I don't see this as about a specific deletion/closing/etc. I see it in a broader sense of simply asking to discuss when any of those actions are really necessary.

Originally Posted by paintmered

All I ask is that we aren't put on public trial every time one of us takes an action. The job is hard enough as it is and the pay stinks. That's the reason I requested that people PM me instead. I'm actually quite willing to engage in discussion regarding any of my moderating and I have done so with many posters through the years.

That sounds fair enough to me.

Originally Posted by paintmered

And I actually agree with you on deleting posts vs. closing threads. All of the mods do. But we also have thresholds where we consider threads to be beyond rehabilitation and I considered the thread yesterday to exceed that threshold.

Originally Posted by camisadelgolf

I'm surprised to hear you say that all of the mods agree with me on the topic because I've seen a lot of threads become locked prematurely--by my estimation, of course. But again, it's not a criticism. When I bring up this topic, I have nothing but the site's best interest in mind. I think it would be great if there were more of a defined line in the guidelines, possibly something similar or identical to what Brutus the Pimp is saying.

When I think of closed threads I think of questionable premature closings too but also mods that are more likely to do it than other mods. Which, I think, is kinda interesting (at least to me). That thread had been up for awhile and I know that at least one or two mods/admin warned people but yet it remained open until paintmered came back from vacation and he closed it. I doubt the mods/admin had stopped paying attention to the thread. This isn't meant to pick on paintmered but when he says that all of the mods are in agreement that surprised me too.

That thread started off ok but went off-topic right away on the 2nd page and never really went back to the main topic. Instead of being about Phillips too much of it was inappropriate stuff about the girl. It's not that I mind that it's closed so much as I think that it's just another example of a few posters making specific offensive remarks that result in a closed thread. Unfortunately, the warning that Chip gave just let them know that if they kept it up all that would happen would be that the thread would be closed. But they didn't care. They had their fun and that was all that they cared about.

[SunDeck]

It's not up to me how these things are handled. I'm a guest here and I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this online community. The mods have consistently used a restrained and even handed approach to dealing with these situations and frankly we'd have less of this high school drama if people would simply read their posts out loud to a friend before hitting the submit button. Unfortunately that seems like a relatively dim prospect, so I'll put it more clearly:
This forum does not exist for people to exercise their first amendment rights- it's a club. Get with the program or take your ball and go to another playground.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by paxTV

I think everyone should take a deep breath and relax. No one is out to delete your post and no one is out to take away your mod powers. In my opinion, we should be able to talk without anyone on either side getting hot under the collar or taking great offense.

It's clear that the people with the power to close threads/delete posts aren't always the ones with the biggest sense of humor. And I think that is ok. As long as we are all respectful to each other. Mods do an excellent 100% grade A job on dealing with the very loud, combative posters who challenge authority and make their opinions heard, but sometimes, and it's understandable why, they miss a particular brand of name calling. The best example of this is in the Steve Phillips thread when certain posters made multiple posts condemning other posters and making sweeping character judgments that, IMO, shouldn't be made. Even if a poster makes a sexist comment, I don't think other posters should be allowed to publicly label them a sexist person or cast moral judgments on them. But sometimes they are allowed to do this without any consequence. IMO, it should be the mods job to call out and deal with these posters in private. Also if a poster has a very serious problem with the tone or content of another post they should use the "report post" function rather than replying and calling that person a bigot/sexist/casting a moral judgment. To me the sexist/inappropriate comments are the first step to a good thread being unfortunately closed, and the replies making moral/character judgments are the second step.

I'd love to see Redszone move in the direction Boss-Hog mentioned of deleting posts over closing threads, and I'd also like to see less tolerance for giant character judgments from any and all parties.

I hope my point comes across without causing any offense.

Just out of curiosity, how does someone with 4 posts develop such a detailed opinion of redszone posting history? You've commented on redszone posting behavior in several of your posts.

I can't help myself but ask (again this is a sincere question)...

BTW, I don't think the mods are being defensive. They are doing their job and they are right that questioning their moderation really should be done via PM IMHO (actually Boss has indicated the mechanism that we all should use when addressing a specific decision is that the individual involved should PM the mod).

There is a way that questions about procedure can be openly discussed-there are several threads in the archives where just that has been done in great detail (presumably you've already spent a great deal of time reading the archives so maybe you've seen a few such threads?). Questioning a specific action in a public fashion probably is rarely appropriate IMHO. I approach this issue with an obvious bias-I think we're extremely lucky to have the moderation that we have on redszone as I think without it, the quality of discussion we get to enjoy simply wouldn't be possible. In other words, I think they (the mods) should enjoy a certain respect in the way we question their decisions.

[paintmered]

Originally Posted by jojo

Just out of curiosity, how does someone with 4 posts develop such a detailed opinion of redszone posting history? You've commented on redszone posting behavior in several of your posts.

I can't help myself but ask (again this is a sincere question)...

BTW, I don't think the mods are being defensive. They are doing their job and they are right that questioning their moderation really should be done via PM IMHO.

There is a way that questions about procedure can be openly discussed-there are several threads in the archives where just that has been done in great detail. Questioning a specific action in a public fashion probably is rarely appropriate IMHO. I approach this issue with an obvious bias-I think we're extremely lucky to have the moderation that we have on redszone as I think without it, the quality of discussion we get to enjoy simply wouldn't be possible.

All I ask is that we aren't put on public trial every time one of us takes an action. The job is hard enough as it is and the pay stinks. That's the reason I requested that people PM me instead. I'm actually quite willing to engage in discussion regarding any of my moderating and I have done so with many posters through the years.

[Brutus]

I have no overall complaints of the moderation of this site, so this is more of a philosophical response.

However, I'm not sure why such a thread is determined that it "should be closed." In my opinion, any thread that contains reasonable discussion by adults, even if the opinions represented might be somewhat reprehensible, should be left alone. If it's not a bunch of name-calling, personal attacks or filled with questionable language, why does such a topic need closed anyhow?

Again, overall this is no indictment of any moderator or administrator. I just don't get the rush to close a controversial thread. I didn't participate in that particular thread, as I personally had nothing to add. But while I didn't care for some of the particular opinions, it was quite honestly an adult thread with rational discussion.

Some of the opinions might be of poor taste as to how people are viewed, but moderating this forum shouldn't be about moderating personalities but rather moderating content that violates forum rules. I realize the catch-all "moderators reserve the right to delete any post at any time." But I don't understand what was so objectionable about the content in that thread. It certainly had some underlying statements as to how people might view/treat women in real life, but I tend to think it's too easy to take one's personal opinion at how people should be treated and apply that to a discussion topic. I don't agree with the stated opinions by some of the posters in that thread. But it certainly was not a thread that was causing a great deal of undo commotion.

Just my opinion. Again, I realize moderators are volunteers, and I think this forum is a good one. In that case, I tend to think it was a flex of muscle. Again, just an opinion.

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp

I have no overall complaints of the moderation of this site, so this is more of a philosophical response.

However, I'm not sure why such a thread is determined that it "should be closed." In my opinion, any thread that contains reasonable discussion by adults, even if the opinions represented might be somewhat reprehensible, should be left alone. If it's not a bunch of name-calling, personal attacks or filled with questionable language, why does such a topic need closed anyhow?

Again, overall this is no indictment of any moderator or administrator. I just don't get the rush to close a controversial thread. I didn't participate in that particular thread, as I personally had nothing to add. But while I didn't care for some of the particular opinions, it was quite honestly an adult thread with rational discussion.

Some of the opinions might be of poor taste as to how people are viewed, but moderating this forum shouldn't be about moderating personalities but rather moderating content that violates forum rules. I realize the catch-all "moderators reserve the right to delete any post at any time." But I don't understand what was so objectionable about the content in that thread. It certainly had some underlying statements as to how people might view/treat women in real life, but I tend to think it's too easy to take one's personal opinion at how people should be treated and apply that to a discussion topic. I don't agree with the stated opinions by some of the posters in that thread. But it certainly was not a thread that was causing a great deal of undo commotion.

Just my opinion. Again, I realize moderators are volunteers, and I think this forum is a good one. In that case, I tend to think it was a flex of muscle. Again, just an opinion.

I have a feeling that the answer to your philosophical question is why there is a Peanut Gallery.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by Highlifeman21

I have a feeling that the answer to your philosophical question is why there is a Peanut Gallery.

Sure, if we're talking about politics or religion. But this topic wasn't about either of those.

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp

Sure, if we're talking about politics or religion. But this topic wasn't about either of those.

Hey, I'm with you.

And I don't think any posts should be deleted, and as long as threads don't have blatant name-calling, is there really reason to close them if the discussion is interesting?

I mean Hell, I found it interesting that posters called me a misogynist in the Steve Phillips thread, since last time I checked I don't hate women, but I didn't want the thread closed just b/c people incorrectly judged me.

[Caveat Emperor]

Originally Posted by Highlifeman21

.
And I don't think any posts should be deleted, and as long as threads don't have blatant name-calling, is there really reason to close them if the discussion is interesting?

Speaking for only myself as a mod, "interesting discussion" isn't the only reason to keep a thread gonig.

[jojo]

To me the irony about the vociferous reactions to moderation that sometimes occur is that concerning the current structure of the ORG, Boss and GIK have been extremely generous in the degree that they allow us to define this community.