Can The Reds Win With Bailey and Cueto?

[TheNext44]

Yes, a knee jerk reaction to Friday's game, but something that I've been wondering about for awhile.

Both are young, flyball pitchers who have yet to really find it. I think unless they close the gap in GABP to get rid of the wind tunnel in right center, there is no way the Reds can afford to keep both and compete.

If the Reds played in a less homer friendly park, they could let both of them work things out in the hope that at least one of them reaches their potential. But in GABP, when they make just one mistake, they get hammered. I don't see this letting up.

I say trade at least on of them for a real LF. One of them and Phillips would get a great one.

Anyone agree?

[Will M]

i find it a bit emotionally draining to be a Reds fan. my enthusiasm tank is pretty empty right now. the team keeps making mistake after mistake despite changes in ownership, GMs & managers. then the team keeps running out the same 'potential' guys year after year with the same subpar results. it wouldn't suprise me if someday Homer was a good major league starter but i suspect it will NEVER be for the Reds. as for Johnny i am past ready for his move to the pen. its truly amazing how many chances these guys get.

I would actually be HAPPY if the team:
1. Traded Homer tomorrow for the best deal we could get
2. Called up Maloney to take his place
3. Moved Cueto to the pen when the team feels Chapman is ready
4. trade/release Harang when the team feels Wood is ready
5. trade Brandon 'showboat' Phillips after a hot streak when they can get value

it seems 2010 was simply to put 'lipstick on the pig' of the 2009 team & try to sell it to the fans as a team that could compete. same players as 2009 is gonna get you the same results as 2009.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by Will M

the team keeps making mistake after mistake despite changes in ownership, GMs & managers.

then the team keeps running out the same 'potential' guys year after year with the same subpar results. it seems 2010 was simply to put 'lipstick on the pig' of the 2009 team & try to sell it to the fans as a team that could compete. same players as 2009 is gonna get you the same results as 2009.

I think that I agree with you. I wish that the Reds would either get on the Tampa, Florida, Oakland, and Minnesota plan or get on the St. Louis and other big spenders plan. The Reds keep getting basically the same $50.00 bag of groceries filled with cheap cosmetics when they go shopping.

They did pay the big bucks for the general manager, the manager and the broadcast booth, to get similiar results, that many try to dismiss and white wash away.

The same players as 2008, 2009 or the same, like or similar performance and production numbers, even if the players names change, will get you the same results as 2008, 2009.…..2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 etc.

Walt Jocketty/Dusty Baker's Cincinnati Reds
2008 OBP .321 ranked 25th RS 704 ranked 24th 4.34 RPG
2009 OBP .318 ranked 28th RS 673 ranked 24th 4.15 RPG
2010 OBP .314 ranked 25th RS 121 ranked 20th RS projects 700 4.32 RPG

Improvement ???

Run support for the pitching?

Or the same lipstick?
Repackaged and sold to the fans.
I think that I recognize the snout and curly little tail.

To put "lipstick on a pig" is a rhetorical expression, used to convey the message that making superficial or cosmetic changes is a futile attempt to disguise the true nature of a product.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_on_a_pig

[Tommyjohn25]

I'm with Reds44. I don't get the hating on Cueto. Our SP has been better as a whole during the last 10 games. Last night is was awful. It happens.

By the way I am not opposed to trying Bailey in the pen. I do agree that his days as a starter are numbered.

[reds44]

Why is there so much hate for Cueto on here? He showed improvement from his first to second year, and while he's off to a slow start this year, his last two starts have been much better.

He'll be fine.

[GADawg]

it'd probably wouldn't sting so much to be a flyball pitcher if they weren't always(or should I say eventually)pitching behind in the count. I wonder if the Reds hitters(although they had a good night)noticed that the Cubs still got their knocks even after taking a few pitches and falling behind in the count early on...I'd just like them to take a few so that I don't have to hear Thom say "first pitch swinging"....that really drives him crazy eh?

btw why is it that everyone is always jonesing to trade Phillips? He's one of if not the best defensive middle infielder in the league and while he's no cleanup hitter he is still a very solid offensive player for his position. If it's his being the anti Adam Rosales then I can understand somewhat but otherwise I don't really get it. Without him what are you gonna fill that spot with...more Aaron Miles types?

[Will M]

Originally Posted by GADawg

btw why is it that everyone is always jonesing to trade Phillips? He's one of if not the best defensive middle infielder in the league and while he's no cleanup hitter he is still a very solid offensive player for his position. If it's his being the anti Adam Rosales then I can understand somewhat but otherwise I don't really get it. Without him what are you gonna fill that spot with...more Aaron Miles types?

1. i agree that based on his overall offensive & defensive numbers he is an above average player
2. i don't like the 'showboating'
3. he makes some big bucks & next year makes a ton. the money he makes next year really needs to go for an impact player not a complimentary player
4. 2B & LF should be (i know its the Reds) easier positions to fill than C, SS, CF, etc

[TheNext44]

Originally Posted by GADawg

btw why is it that everyone is always jonesing to trade Phillips? He's one of if not the best defensive middle infielder in the league and while he's no cleanup hitter he is still a very solid offensive player for his position. If it's his being the anti Adam Rosales then I can understand somewhat but otherwise I don't really get it. Without him what are you gonna fill that spot with...more Aaron Miles types?

I have made my case for trading Phillips in other threads, but here is the condensed version.

He's the type of talent you build your team around. But he keeps making the same mistakes over and over again, and despite being called out in the media by his manager, over and over again, he does not learn or change. I see him being a constant problem/distraction in the clubhouse, and I see him continuing to make the same mistakes that hurt this team's chances to win. It is time for him to find another place to make these mistakes.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by reds44

Why is there so much hate for Cueto on here? He showed improvement from his first to second year, and while he's off to a slow start this year, his last two starts have been much better.

He'll be fine.

OTM. Pretty unfair to Cueto, I agree.

[Guacarock]

The frustration being expressed with Bailey and Cueto is understandable, but premature and overblown. Let me explain. Both are young starting pitchers still learning on the job, building their stamina, gaining experience in what it takes to be steady and reliable all year long.

If they end the 2010 season as inconsistent as they have been to start the season, then it will be time to ask the kinds of questions some of you are posing. Namely, should they remain in our rotation at all? Should they remain but be viewed as middle of the rotation candidates or back-end fodder? Should one of them get recast in Owings' long-relief/spot starter role?

Come September, we should know more about the long-range potential of both of these pitchers and whether they're going to fulfill their potential anytime in the foreseeable future or in a Reds uniform.

For now, our focus should be on Harang and Arroyo. They are the two Reds starting pitchers whose fates should be settled earlier this season. And they are the two whose inconsistencies I find more frustrating than the shortcomings of either Bailey or Cueto.

Why? Because Harang and Arroyo are seasoned veterans drawing megabucks. They're paid quite handsomely to perform at a high level, and when they don't, too much pressure and stress gets diverted to the younger guns like Cueto and Bailey.

If Harang and Arroyo are still sporting ERA's over 6.00 a month from now, I highly doubt either's option will be picked up. Then the burning questions become: Can they be traded? When will they go? Can we reasonably hope to receive any fair return in the deals?

[Will M]

i don't hate Cueto. however, i do feel that he would be a better pitcher in the pen. mainly due to his mental lapses as a starter. as an added bonus his fastball would have a little more mph in the pen as he wouldn't have to pace himself.

as to him being 'average' he is actually a bit below with a career ERA+ of 94 in 67 starts. take a second. 67 starts. and yet IMO he isn't showing improvement. how is he any different than the Johnny Cueto who pitched in May 2008?

[OnBaseMachine]

Originally Posted by reds44

Why is there so much hate for Cueto on here? He showed improvement from his first to second year, and while he's off to a slow start this year, his last two starts have been much better.

He'll be fine.

Agreed. Cueto was one of the best starters in the league in the first half of last season before going through a rough 7-8 game stretch in the middle of the season. He was pretty much a league average starter last season as a 23 year old with limited experience above High-A. There's nothing wrong with that. I was pleased with the improvement he showed last season. Cueto is fine, IMO. Keep him in the rotation where he belongs.

Same with Bailey. He's very frustrating to watch but the Reds need to stick with him and see if he can figure things out. The stuff is there but they need to find out if he can throw enough strikes to get hitters out on a consistent basis.

[TheNext44]

Originally Posted by reds44

Why is there so much hate for Cueto on here? He showed improvement from his first to second year, and while he's off to a slow start this year, his last two starts have been much better.

He'll be fine.

I don't hate Cueto, or Bailey for that matter. In fact, I am very glad that the Reds have them on the team. They both have TOR stuff and could be TOR pitchers someday.

Cueto is obviously farther along than Bailey, but he still is not "there." My question is can he get "there" while pitching in GABP. Same question for Bailey.

I think that pitching in such a homer friendly park affects their overall mentality and approach, even in away games. It forces them to nibble more, to try to keep the other team from putting the ball in play. They both have ERA's over half a run higher at home. Just a theory from observation.

I would love for both of them to develop into their true talent, I'm just not sure that they can do that pitching in GABP. I think it is now time for the team to turn the corner and figure out who fits into the overall plan and who doesn't. I think that the overall plan can't have two young developing fly ball pitchers like Cueto and Bailey. They have to trade at least one of them.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by TheNext44

I think unless they close the gap in GABP to get rid of the wind tunnel in right center, there is no way the Reds can afford to keep both and compete.

If the Reds played in a less homer friendly park, they could let both of them work things out in the hope that at least one of them reaches their potential. But in GABP, when they make just one mistake, they get hammered. I don't see this letting up.

Anyone agree?

Pitching Splits 	
	GP IP 	  BB  SO 	ERA   BAA  OBP  SLG  OPS 
Total 	28 252.1 100 219 	5.17 .274 .347 .425 .772 
Home 	15 138.0  48 120 	5.35 .267 .336 .433 .768 
Away 	13 114.1  52  99 	4.96 .282 .361 .416 .777

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/splits?team=cin

[_Sir_Charles_]

I simply don't see Homer working out in the pen at ALL. He's the type of pitcher who gets better the longer he throws. Pretty much the opposite of what you want from a bullpen arm. I vote that we keep throwing him out there every 5 days all season long. He's still VERY young and he's going to be inconsistent. The rotation is definitely where he belongs. Everybody has a stinker now and then.