Reds name Dick Pole as pitching coach...

[Team Clark]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

*cough* future podcast interview *cough*

Good idea. You should listen to the Raul Gonzalez interview I have posted. Good stuff.

[Team Clark]

I just wonder if Ray Miller was contacted. Ray is probably one of the 5 best Pitching Coaches of ALL time. I know he's available.

[Handofdeath]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

He was also at Baker's side in San Fran. Reported to yell a lot.

Since 1995:

Team: Runs Allowed

1995 SFG- 873 Runs Allowed <projected per 162 games>
1995 SFG- 862 Runs Allowed
1997 SFG- 793 Runs Allowed
1999 ANA- 826 Runs Allowed
2000 CLE- 816 Runs Allowed
2001 CLE- 821 Runs Allowed
2002 MTL- 718 Runs Allowed

Average: 816 Runs Allowed per Season (5.04 RPG). His 1988-1991 Cubs staffs finished 10th, 6th, 11th, and 11th in the NL when it was a 12-team league.

Welcome, Dick. You'll fit right in.

Greg Maddux 1987
6-14 5.61 ERA

Greg Maddux 1988
18-8 3.18 ERA

1993 Giants 3rd in Runs allowed
1994 Giants 5th in Runs allowed

Face it. The Reds made good solid hires at both coaching positions.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by Handofdeath

Greg Maddux 1987
6-14 5.61 ERA

Greg Maddux 1988
18-8 3.18 ERA

1993 Giants 3rd in Runs allowed
1994 Giants 5th in Runs allowed

Face it. The Reds made good solid hires at both coaching positions.

Huh?

[MartyFan]

Originally Posted by Team Clark

I just wonder if Ray Miller was contacted. Ray is probably one of the 5 best Pitching Coaches of ALL time. I know he's available.

I wondered the same thing but was not for sure he was available...since he got the boot from the O's what has he been doing?

[Heath]

Originally Posted by M2

Randy Johnson is probably my favorite name ever, though it's hard to separate him qualitatively from Randy Bush. I've always wanted to know how those two fared when they faced each other.

It depends only how Randy the pitcher...ummm...*cough* penetrated the strike zone.

[traderumor]

In 1954, it was possible for Baltimore Orioles outfielder Dick Kokos to face Detroit Tigers righty Dick Weik.

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by Handofdeath

Greg Maddux 1987
6-14 5.61 ERA

Greg Maddux 1988
18-8 3.18 ERA

1993 Giants 3rd in Runs allowed
1994 Giants 5th in Runs allowed

Face it. The Reds made good solid hires at both coaching positions.

1. Greg Maddux was a 21 year old rookie in 1988.
2. You can thank Roger Craig.

The Reds just hired a hitting coach without much of a history and a pitching coach with a very spotty history to join a GM without much of a history and a manager with a very spotty history. Pardon me if I don't much like filling those positions with "first chance" and "last chance"- especially if any of them have been within earshot of Dusty Baker.

[WVRedsFan]

We had a guy run for governor once named Peter D. Beter (and Beter was pronounced "beater). I was 14 and laughed through the election. I haven't grown up much because I'm been laughing at all this stuff. An adolescent again at 50 plus. Feels good.

[westofyou]

Pole was Sabathia's first pitching coach, when he was 20.

[Team Clark]

Originally Posted by MartyFan

I wondered the same thing but was not for sure he was available...since he got the boot from the O's what has he been doing?

He still has some interaction with the O's. He was replaced when he took ill which paved the way for the Mazzone hiring. If memory serves he had an anyeurysm. My understanding is that he is 100% healthy and ready to go. That guy gets results.

[Handofdeath]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

1. Greg Maddux was a 21 year old rookie in 1988.
2. You can thank Roger Craig.

The Reds just hired a hitting coach without much of a history and a pitching coach with a very spotty history to join a GM without much of a history and a manager with a very spotty history. Pardon me if I don't much like filling those positions with "first chance" and "last chance"- especially if any of them have been within earshot of Dusty Baker.

I can see your point about Baker but if you'll look it up some of the staffs he's worked with have been pretty bad. He can only work with what he's given. Some of the #2 and #3 starters he had wouldn't make the AAA pitching staff on most teams. We are talking Dave Williams bad. He's worked with a lot of quality pitchers and has not screwed up a single one and got some good seasons out of some pretty ordinary pitchers. Maddux himself has said how important he was to his success. High praise in my book. You can be the best pitching coach in the game but if you're working with a bunch of jabronies and the manager is crappy and gets fired what can you do? The Reds got the protege of the best hitting coach in the majors and as a pitching coach the guy who made Greg Maddux a Hall of Famer. They hired as a GM a guy who was Assistant GM on three Division winners. The manager led a team picked to finish last to a 80-82 record this year and is 2 games under .500 for his career here. This with a team that throws Eric Milton out there every fifth day.

[Unassisted]

Originally Posted by Handofdeath

Maddux himself has said how important he was to his success. High praise in my book.

The Reds got the protege of the best hitting coach in the majors and as a pitching coach the guy who made Greg Maddux a Hall of Famer.

That's the spirit of optimism that will sustain us into spring training. "Benefit of the doubt," I say.

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by Handofdeath

...and as a pitching coach the guy who made Greg Maddux a Hall of Famer.

Didn't know Pole was spelled "M-a-z-z-o-n-e".

Or maybe an outlier like Greg Maddux was going to be Greg Maddux regardless of who his pitching coach was? Seems a better theory than crediting a pitching coach with turning a 21-year-old who took the same lumps most 21-year-old's take (19 years ago) into a Hall-of-Famer. Again, 19 years ago. In a game ruled by "What have you done for me lately", 19 years ago doesn't seem to fit the definition of "lately". Heck, if we want to look at "lately", we could consider Tom Hume, who was passed over for the job, to be the guy who turned Bronson Arroyo into an All Star. But then, I expect that correlation isn't any more causality than Dick Pole Re: Greg Maddux.

And it appears no one noticed what the following quote (attributed to Pole by Maddux) translates to:

"Why don't you stop trying to strike guys out? Just try to get them out, and you'll probably strike out just as many guys, if not more."

Translation: "Pitch to contact."

My apologies in advance if you perceive that any of my venom is directed at you, Handofdeath. It's not. I'm just completely ticked off that we've been there and done that and now we're back after a five-minute search for the best possible option at pitching coach.

But being connected (even loosely) with someone like Greg Maddux can perpetuate a career, that's for sure. Since then, I haven't seen anything remotely resembling a real reason to give Dick Pole the job of Pitching Coach at the Major League level. But not only do the Reds do it- they take five minutes to do it. Now they've got a "first chance" hitting coach and a "last chance" pitching coach. And I'm about 100 times more enthused about the unknown of Jacoby than I am about Dick Pole.

However, I'd be twice as enthused about Dick Pole if his middle name were Harry.

Look, I know you're just trying to be hopeful, so I'm not going to address the Krivsky and Narron points (particularly as they've been covered ad nauseum). That'd start some tangents we really don't need on the thread.

[forfreelin04]

[QUOTE=SteelSD;1189591]

And it appears no one noticed what the following quote (attributed to Pole by Maddux) translates to:

"Why don't you stop trying to strike guys out? Just try to get them out, and you'll probably strike out just as many guys, if not more."

Translation: "Pitch to contact."

QUOTE]

How do you figure that? Pitch to contact means to limit walks as much as possible by allowing the batter to see more strikes. I think what Pole (or whatever name you are choosing to call him before he actually gets a shot to make a difference) is referring to here is not overthrowing the ball or trying to make a perfect pitch with two strikes. This quote suggests to me that Maddux learned here to stay within himself in his delivery, stay with his strengths (location and speed change), and become much more of a pitcher then a thrower. I don't think anyone in the Major Leagues barring someone that can throw a fastball by the majority of hitters is ever thinking of striking out every hitter. Few have it and those that do not and still try have little sucess in the majors. I think your jumping to conclusions here about Pole. He has made a difference for alot of pitchers who were so so before they were under his wing. Let's the year play out before we pass judgement.