Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

[Cedric]

Originally Posted by vaticanplum

Ok, to be fair, Cedric, you didn't. The original post I'm talking about is this one:



But you responded to this curtly and with no information, so I didn't infer "good vision and scouting ability" from that. Maybe this is semantics. I agree with mth here on the Arroyo pickup for the most part, but I also agree that good vision and scouting ability are a part of that. He used the phrase "special wisdom" which to me implies something loftier or a unique ability not possessed by most GMs, something beyond vision and scouting.

Look, I really do agree with most of Krivsky's moves, but like I said a couple of pages back, I think that sometimes we overhail the Arroyo trade -- or, more accurately, we hail it in the wrong way. It was a very smart and even-handed move. It wasn't the surprising gift of wisdom that some seem to think it was. A lot of people knew how good Bronson Arroyo was; Krivsky just happened to come up with the right thing to deal for him at the right time. That's not belittling what he did; that's just to say that it was a good baseball move and not "rocket science" as the kids say.

That's all it was. I agree.

I don't think it was a miracle or "rocket science".

It was just a damn good job. Getting a pitcher of Arroyo's quality for an oft injured player like Wily Mo was niec.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Cedric

Why would he have picked up David Ross if he hadn't seen any potential in his approach and swing? For David's stellar defense?

It just doesn't make sense to take away a guys scouting ability and vision because you don't like his later moves. It reeks of bias.

Cedric..look at it this way. You have to feel the same about all of Wayne's moves if you think that he really liked Ross and Phillips. It is more biased to say "He must have liked Ross, but not Kim, Franklin, Lohse, Mays, Yan, Cormier, etc etc etc because those were just desperation trades and pickups." Ross and Phillips were gotten for pennies on the dollar like the others and we can't look back months later and say the ones that worked out were b/c of WK's keen scouting eye and those that didn't were just desperation moves. If he saw potential in Ross, then he saw potential in the stiffs also.

[Cedric]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Cedric..look at it this way. You have to feel the same about all of Wayne's moves if you think that he really liked Ross and Phillips. It is more biased to say "He must have liked Ross, but not Kim, Franklin, Lohse, Mays, Yan, Cormier, etc etc etc because those were just desperation trades and pickups." Ross and Phillips were gotten for pennies on the dollar like the others and we can't look back months later and say the ones that worked out were b/c of WK's keen scouting eye and those that didn't were just desperation moves. If he saw potential in Ross, then he saw potential in the stiffs also.

It might be more right than a bias.

Obviously Kim, Michalak, and Yan were desperation moves. How in the hell could you not be desperate after watching the bullpen he inherited? Hell I would have tried you.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Cedric

It might be more right than a bias.

Obviously Kim, Michalak, and Yan were desperation moves. How in the hell could you not be desperate after watching the bullpen he inherited? Hell I would have tried you.

Obviously I agree, but Phillips and D Ross could have flunked like C Ross and the others. They were all no-risk moves. A few panned out really well. But the others? Not so well. I compare them all b/c they were all low risk. Except Lohse. Still wondering what he was smoking when he dreamed that one up. Especially since he didn't get any cash in the deal.

[Mario-Rijo]

I think too many posters assume that the Washington trade was/is a disaster, frankly I'm not convinced. I still believe he made a solid deal for a host of reasons the most of which is that Majewski and Bray haven't necc. yet reached their potential (Bray for sure). Not too mention Darrell Thompson and Brendan Harris. Royce Clayton obviously was a guy who we asked for to give us a steady guy for the rest of the season.

Bottom line we won't know just how good we got it or how bad we got it for quite some time. I could understand the criticism if it was blatantly obvious that the 2 main chips we got back didn't have the type of talent to warrant giving up on Kearns and Felo, but I think they do.

And I feel that when you can get pitchers for hitters of equal (or close to) talent then you must do it, unless of course you are stacked with it and frankly no one is that stacked.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying we got a better deal than everyone is stating. What I am saying is don't try to feed me that it's not a successful trade just because it hasn't worked out yet. On the other hand it doesn't necc. mean that some cannot rave about getting Phillips, Arroyo, Ross and the like because they have had some degree of success already. Perhaps they will not continue to have success and at some point you might be able to say hey trading off that beast Wily Mo for that Bronson guy was a really bad deal for us. And you might be right!

But for now I think Krivsky deserves the benefit of the doubt, not because I or anyone says so but just because it's the right thing to do! Have some daggon patience people, the Big Red Machine wasn't built in a day.

[vaticanplum]

22 pages on Alex Gonzalez. Cripes, November, it drives me bananas. The offseason brings out the worst in all baseball fans: intellect and analysis.

Where did that Opening Day countdown go?

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by vaticanplum

22 pages on Alex Gonzalez. Cripes, November, it drives me bananas. The offseason brings out the worst in all baseball fans: intellect and analysis.

Where did that Opening Day countdown go?

Well, in all fairness, not all 22 pages have been on AGon. There's been a virtual multitude of topics within these magical pages.

The real question, how many times has Dunn been mentioned in these 22 pages?

[mth123]

Originally Posted by vaticanplum

22 pages on Alex Gonzalez. Cripes, November, it drives me bananas. The offseason brings out the worst in all baseball fans: intellect and analysis.

Where did that Opening Day countdown go?

Talking baseball is all in fun. Most on here are more knowledgeable than the people we see in our real lives. We don't have to have the same opinions to enjoy talking about it. But everyone's knowledge on the subject makes it worthwhile.

[Wheelhouse]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

I think too many posters assume that the Washington trade was/is a disaster, frankly I'm not convinced. I still believe he made a solid deal for a host of reasons the most of which is that Majewski and Bray haven't necc. yet reached their potential (Bray for sure). Not too mention Darrell Thompson and Brendan Harris. Royce Clayton obviously was a guy who we asked for to give us a steady guy for the rest of the season.

Bottom line we won't know just how good we got it or how bad we got it for quite some time. I could understand the criticism if it was blatantly obvious that the 2 main chips we got back didn't have the type of talent to warrant giving up on Kearns and Felo, but I think they do.

And I feel that when you can get pitchers for hitters of equal (or close to) talent then you must do it, unless of course you are stacked with it and frankly no one is that stacked.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying we got a better deal than everyone is stating. What I am saying is don't try to feed me that it's not a successful trade just because it hasn't worked out yet. On the other hand it doesn't necc. mean that some cannot rave about getting Phillips, Arroyo, Ross and the like because they have had some degree of success already. Perhaps they will not continue to have success and at some point you might be able to say hey trading off that beast Wily Mo for that Bronson guy was a really bad deal for us. And you might be right!

But for now I think Krivsky deserves the benefit of the doubt, not because I or anyone says so but just because it's the right thing to do! Have some daggon patience people, the Big Red Machine wasn't built in a day.

Well stated. Bravo!

[Wheelhouse]

Here's the picture of Alex Gonzalez from the Enquirer:

Nice typo. Gonzalez, Rodriguez, whatev...

[Johnny Footstool]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

I think too many posters assume that the Washington trade was/is a disaster, frankly I'm not convinced. I still believe he made a solid deal for a host of reasons the most of which is that Majewski and Bray haven't necc. yet reached their potential (Bray for sure). Not too mention Darrell Thompson and Brendan Harris. Royce Clayton obviously was a guy who we asked for to give us a steady guy for the rest of the season.

Every time I hear this argument, I like to point out that Kearns and Lopez are 26 years old and have yet to reach their peak years. So the deal could be even worse.

Bottom line we won't know just how good we got it or how bad we got it for quite some time. I could understand the criticism if it was blatantly obvious that the 2 main chips we got back didn't have the type of talent to warrant giving up on Kearns and Felo, but I think they do.

The criticism is based on value at the time of the deal. Krivsky made a desperation move and undersold.

I can see Bray having a lot of value, but what about Majewski makes you think he'll be worth an *above average everyday player*? He looks like a middle reliever at best, and there are plenty of those guys around. If Krivsky's scouting eye is as keen as some people think, he shouldn't have any problem finding three or four more Majewskis that don't cost the Reds nearly as much talent.

And I feel that when you can get pitchers for hitters of equal (or close to) talent then you must do it, unless of course you are stacked with it and frankly no one is that stacked.

The problem is that Bray and Majewski aren't above average at their positions, but Kearns and Lopez are.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying we got a better deal than everyone is stating. What I am saying is don't try to feed me that it's not a successful trade just because it hasn't worked out yet.

If it wasn't designed to produce an immediate return, why did Krivsky make the deal mid-season?

Krivsky made the deal for two reasons: to help the Reds in 2006 and in the future. Phase One of that plan failed miserably. Phase Two has yet to play out, but Phase One was the main reason behind the timing of the deal. So yes, we are justified in criticizing it.

On the other hand it doesn't necc. mean that some cannot rave about getting Phillips, Arroyo, Ross and the like because they have had some degree of success already. Perhaps they will not continue to have success and at some point you might be able to say hey trading off that beast Wily Mo for that Bronson guy was a really bad deal for us. And you might be right!

But for now I think Krivsky deserves the benefit of the doubt, not because I or anyone says so but just because it's the right thing to do! Have some daggon patience people, the Big Red Machine wasn't built in a day.

Krivksy has worn my patience thin. He has to earn my trust at this point. The Gonzalez deal helps him a little bit. Let's see how he does over the next few months.

[M2]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

I think too many posters assume that the Washington trade was/is a disaster, frankly I'm not convinced. I still believe he made a solid deal for a host of reasons the most of which is that Majewski and Bray haven't necc. yet reached their potential (Bray for sure). Not too mention Darrell Thompson and Brendan Harris.

Krivsky made the deal to address immediate needs that the deal ended up not addressing. Worse than that, it created new problems that buried the club in the second half of the season. Worse even than that is now the Reds find themselves holding a largely empty bag with Bray and Majewski when Kearns and Lopez would be prime targets in the trade market.

How much worse does a trade get than that?

Even if Bray and Majewski deliver something better in the future, it doesn't make up for the miss in 2006 or the fact that Kearns and Lopez are worth a whole lot more than Bray and Majewski at the moment. The deal's immediate failure is a historical fact and the opportunity missed this offseason is something the team is never going to get back.

What we're left hoping for is a salvage. If Bray can be good for a few years and Majewski can be serviceable then at least the return will have netted something.

But it would absolutely be better to have Felipe and Austin on hand today. The Reds would have all kinds of trade options open to them and there's no doubt in my mind Krivsky could do a lot better than the light return he got from the Nats.

Harris is a reserve IF and Thompson was a C prospect whose arm is being rebuilt. I doubt anyone in the organization holds out much hope for them to be impact players.

[vaticanplum]

Hey, as a side note, when reviewing Krivsky's deals as GM, why does no one ever mention Hatteberg? I know that everybody's bracing for him to hit about .170 this year, but his career as it stands with the Reds to date involved him doing a fine job in Sean Casey's place for about a squillionth of Casey's salary. That was a great pickup.

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by vaticanplum

Hey, as a side note, when reviewing Krivsky's deals as GM, why does no one ever mention Hatteberg? I know that everybody's bracing for him to hit about .170 this year, but his career as it stands with the Reds to date involved him doing a fine job in Sean Casey's place for about a squillionth of Casey's salary. That was a great pickup.

I'm 50/50 with you about Hatteberg. While I like what he offered us in 2006, it was the addition of Hatteberg that derailed the Dunn to 1B transition. Conversely, it was keeping Dunn in the OF along with Griffey and Kearns that allowed Wily Mo Pena to be shipped to Boston for Bronson Arroyo.

So, in a roundabout way, adding Hatteberg allowed us to obtain Arroyo.

I just hope Hatteberg comes close to his 2006 numbers for 2007, or else I fear Joey Votto will get rushed to the show.

[redsmetz]

Originally Posted by Highlifeman21

I'm 50/50 with you about Hatteberg. While I like what he offered us in 2006, it was the addition of Hatteberg that derailed the Dunn to 1B transition. Conversely, it was keeping Dunn in the OF along with Griffey and Kearns that allowed Wily Mo Pena to be shipped to Boston for Bronson Arroyo.

So, in a roundabout way, adding Hatteberg allowed us to obtain Arroyo.

I just hope Hatteberg comes close to his 2006 numbers for 2007, or else I fear Joey Votto will get rushed to the show.

Folks keeping saying things like your last paragraph, but I honestly think we're in a new day. I think when it comes to player development, Wayne is not into rushing players up. I probably say this enough that folks eyes fall back into the back of your head, but I think the "new Reds" are about step by step - you start in rookie ball, go to Low A, go to High A, and so on. Succeed at each level. I think the days of rushing a guy up from Chattanooga are over. Wayne has said on numerous occasions that we have AAA for a reason (and it's not just keep the Reserves on). I think it's possible Votto will be up next year if he shows success at Louisville, otherwise not, Hatteberg's performance notwithstanding.