Say a prayer for those killed in the plane crash...

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by Heath

Checking the map of Blue Grass Airport - one is wondering if the shortened runway will be extended as part of an FAA "grant" to "upgrade" the facilities.

My guess would be no. I'm going from memory so I might be off here, but runway 26 is a bit landlocked. Blocked on one end by a parking lot and the airport property is blocked in by a horse farm of some sort off the other end of the runway (actually, its on/near this farm where the wreckage of 5191 was strewn). I don't think there is enough room to extend it from it's aprox 3,500 foot length to a length safely usuable by jet transports.

Also, IIRC rwy 26 is pretty narrow. I'd guess that it would have to be widened for greater than 30 passenger aircraft use.

They might, however, use some of that money to clarify the taxiway markings and other signage to avoid further confusion.

[George Foster]

Maybe I'm callous, but I think these guys in the cockpit were stooges. To my knowledge, every commercial runway in America has lights. For the co-pilot to say, "that's weird...this runway has no lights," and for the pilot to say, "ya," is just mind blowing. The air traffic control's recorded conversation with the plane cleared them for the right runway. They took the wrong one....there are only 2 runways. I guess we should look at the glass half full, and be glad that "dumb and dumber" did not graduate to larger commerical airlines and kill like 350 people.

[Redsland]

Originally Posted by George Foster

I guess we should look at the glass half full, and be glad that "dumb and dumber" did not graduate to larger commerical airlines and kill like 350 people.

Regional airlines like Comair are often feeders for the big guys. So if there are stooges in the regionals, some of them will end up flying you around eventually.

The air traffic control's recorded conversation with the plane cleared them for the right runway. They took the wrong one.

That's where I would guess the problem arose. The tower cleared them for runway two-six; the pilot agreed; the plane came upon a runway labeled two-something, and away we go. Absent-mindedness, perhaps. Distracted, maybe.

They were just one number off, but it made all the difference.

[vaticanplum]

Originally Posted by Redsland

I remember an occasion twenty or thirty years ago in which a pilot decided to use the lavatory, which was not a problem, since the plane was on autopilot. So the pilot takes his headset off, gets up, and puts his headset down in such a way as to accidentally and unknowingly click off the autopilot. Then he left the flight deck. At that point the plane began to slowly lose altitude, and you can guess the rest. (Reassuring note: this can't happen anymore.)

Uh, after reading your entire post, I would like to know why. Whatever the reason, I'm going to have to say it over and over to myself next time I fly, as I wash down a couple of vicodin with 16 gin and tonics.

[Redsland]

The switch has been covered by one of those red flippy things.

:all_cohol

[vaticanplum]

Dude, you're kidding, right?

[RFS62]

Originally Posted by vaticanplum

Dude, you're kidding, right?

Don't underestimate the red flippy thing.

[Redsland]

Originally Posted by vaticanplum

Dude, you're kidding, right?

Nope.

That was the immediate solution, anyway. Since then some cockpits have gone to dials, though, or put the autopilot controls in the "glass cockpit" interface (touchscreens and so forth, usually backed up by computers that scream bloody murder if anything seems off).

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by Redsland

That's where I would guess the problem arose. The tower cleared them for runway two-six; the pilot agreed; the plane came upon a runway labeled two-something, and away we go. Absent-mindedness, perhaps. Distracted, maybe.

They were just one number off, but it made all the difference.

Actually the tower cleared them to the correct rwy 22. They made the wrong turn onto 26. Here's a link to the transcripts from the tower communications. Note page 5 at 1002:04 the tower clears them to rwy 22. Comair 5191 (noted as COM191 on this transcript) reads back the correct runway (again rwy 22).

I agree that being distracted played some sort of role in this accident (based on the facts available at this time). Bluegrass field isn't all that big so the time to taxi from the gate to the runway isn't very long. In this time the pilots have a myrid of check lists and other duties to perform. Yet, the captain especially kept talking about non-flight related subjects which can't do much for cockpit discipline.

The first officer doesn't say much in the begining and then eventually starts chiming in. So you have a first officer who is now chatting and mixing in checklists (ie take off preperations) as he is taxing towards the runway and subsequent take off. And you have a captain who is a chatterbox and seems more interested in what is going with staffing issues instead of assisting the first officer.

Mix in a dark rainy morning, a confusing taxiway scheme and incorrect situational picture reinforced by the missing rwy lights and you have an accident. Unfortunatly, in the case, 49 people paid the price.

I don't know if I'd call the pilots stooges. Accidents caused by pilot error (and there has been no offical determination as to the cause of this accident) tend to leave the impression that the pilots were bumbling idiots. It doesn't paint a picture of the hundreds of other flights where they may have flown competently. It may be they let their guard down this one time (I doubt it, but it's possible) and it bit them in the keister.

Then again, poor airmanship has a way of catching up with people.

[George Foster]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

Actually the tower cleared them to the correct rwy 22. They made the wrong turn onto 26. Here's a link to the transcripts from the tower communications. Note page 5 at 1002:04 the tower clears them to rwy 22. Comair 5191 (noted as COM191 on this transcript) reads back the correct runway (again rwy 22).

I agree that being distracted played some sort of role in this accident (based on the facts available at this time). Bluegrass field isn't all that big so the time to taxi from the gate to the runway isn't very long. In this time the pilots have a myrid of check lists and other duties to perform. Yet, the captain especially kept talking about non-flight related subjects which can't do much for cockpit discipline.

The first officer doesn't say much in the begining and then eventually starts chiming in. So you have a first officer who is now chatting and mixing in checklists (ie take off preperations) as he is taxing towards the runway and subsequent take off. And you have a captain who is a chatterbox and seems more interested in what is going with staffing issues instead of assisting the first officer.

Mix in a dark rainy morning, a confusing taxiway scheme and incorrect situational picture reinforced by the missing rwy lights and you have an accident. Unfortunatly, in the case, 49 people paid the price.

I don't know if I'd call the pilots stooges. Accidents caused by pilot error (and there has been no offical determination as to the cause of this accident) tend to leave the impression that the pilots were bumbling idiots. It doesn't paint a picture of the hundreds of other flights where they may have flown competently. It may be they let their guard down this one time (I doubt it, but it's possible) and it bit them in the keister.

Then again, poor airmanship has a way of catching up with people.

My uncle was a commericial airline pilot for 20 years with Eastern Airlines. He said the ONLY reason you have a co-pilot is so crap like this does not happen. He said it does not matter what runway was cleared for take off, if there was construction, etc. "You are in charge of that bird." We are not tallking about Atlanta International....this is Lexington. 2 freekin runways. a short one, a long one. One with lights, one that did not have lights. Pilot error...is being generous.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by George Foster

My uncle was a commericial airline pilot for 20 years with Eastern Airlines. He said the ONLY reason you have a co-pilot is so crap like this does not happen. He said it does not matter what runway was cleared for take off, if there was construction, etc. "You are in charge of that bird." We are not tallking about Atlanta International....this is Lexington. 2 freekin runways. a short one, a long one. One with lights, one that did not have lights. Pilot error...is being generous.

None of those factors excuse the pilots of not performing their duties and playing a role in the deaths of 49 people. Better cockpit discipline, following proper procedures, even being humble to ask for progressive taxi instructions. Any one of those actions would have likely prevented the accident.

But I would also argue all the factors do matter when considering how the accident event unfolded. Examining those factors can help us understand pilot behavior and perhaps prevent these sorts of accidents in the future.

In 5191 perhaps if the taxiway layout wasn't confusing the captains inscessant chatter would have been mearly an irritant to the copilot. Perhaps if the pilot wasn't talking so much, the copilot would have noticed the lack of lights sooner. Perhaps had the captain given a proper take off breif it would have focused the co-pilot and he would have been more dilligent. Perhaps if they wern't mentally conditioned to expect some lights to be out, they would have noticed that the wrong runway lights were missing from the picture. Perhaps had the co-pilot not given in to the peer pressure to deviate from prototcol the captain would have shut up and focused back on his duties.

None of these factors excuse their sadly all too common errors but they most certinally set the stage for the accident. Your uncle is correct, ultimate responsibility lies squarely on the captain and in this case it appears he played a major role (at least IMO and with these facts) in the accident. But chalking it up to two dunderhead pilots does a disservice to the process of learning (or in this case re-learning some basic truths) and improving airline saftey.

Yes, I am a total dork.