Jessica gets her Justice today!

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS

Everyone's got a story and a potential excuse.

You don't believe in self-determination. I do.

As with anything, self-determination all depends on money and power; the more you have, the more you have.

If that weren't true, no one would compete for anything.

[oneupper]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

As with anything, self-determination all depends on money and power; the more you have, the more you have.

If that weren't true, no one would compete for anything.

Life ain't fair. It wasn't fair to Jessica and don't care if it's "fair" to her killer or not.

This society has made the decision that executing criminals like Couey is acceptable. You may not agree and other societies don't proceed the same way (and then again there are those who stone adulterers).

Perhaps that perception will change. For now, I'll take revenge thank you very much.

The syringe, please.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by oneupper

Life ain't fair. It wasn't fair to Jessica and don't care if it's "fair" to her killer or not.

This society has made the decision that executing criminals like Couey is acceptable. You may not agree and other societies don't proceed the same way (and then again there are those who stone adulterers).

Perhaps that perception will change. For now, I'll take revenge thank you very much.

The syringe, please.

Can I slap you if you offend me? Break your window if your kid breaks mine? Blow your car up if you blow up mine?

I think you know the answer to each of those questions. Justice is not revenge.

It's ultimately not about excuses, it's about what we do as a society to solve our problems. And killing humans, criminally, or sanctioned by law, doesn't strike me as the answer to any question.

The death penalty doesn't deter crime. It doesn't bring back the dead. It doesn't palliate the crime for the bereaved.

But it gets politicians elected.

[oneupper]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Can I slap you if you offend me? Break your window if your kid breaks mine? Blow your car up if you blow up mine?

I think you know the answer to each of those questions. Justice is not revenge.

It's ultimately not about excuses, it's about what we do as a society to solve our problems. And killing humans, criminally, or sanctioned by law, doesn't strike me as the answer to any question.

The death penalty doesn't deter crime. It doesn't bring back the dead. It doesn't palliate the crime for the bereaved.

But it gets politicians elected.

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

[George Foster]

Originally Posted by Doc. Scott

My opposition to the death penalty has much more to do with the historical evidence of its lopsidedly common sentencing to poor, minority, and mentally ill defendants. Until society can show that it's going to apply the death penalty across the board to everyone regardless of socioeconomic status, I'm against it. And I'm not holding my breath about that.

I can't really say that I'm for or against its application to Couey, given the facts of the case, but I'm with FCB that the real problem is that he should never have had another opportunity to do what he did in the first place.

Scott Peterson says Hi!!

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by RFS62

Considering the cost of an execution as a factor in deciding if we as a society are going to execute people seems obscene to me..

Funny, I think it's obscene to house, clothe, feed, provide medical care and in some cases educations to a bunch of murders and rapists for the remainder of their lives. They have done nothing but harm society and then turn around and live on the public dole. The victem in a grave, the criminal is doing push ups in the fancy weight room. How is that a 'punishment' comisurate with the crime?

Originally Posted by registerthis

The costs aren't being minimized though. You can't look at the cost of an execution as simply the excecution itself in a vacuum. You can't disassociate the appeals, reviews and various other processes that go into it, because they are an inseperable and necessary part of the capital punishment system.

If our government decided that hacking off the hands of thieves was an appropriate punishment, would you simply shrug your shoulders and toss it into the category of things your government does that you simply don't agree with?.

But the cost of the appeals, reviews and various other processes are what bost up the total cost of executing the criminal. Of course there should be appeals, reviews, etc in the process, but I can't believe anyone would argue that the legal process is a streamlined, effecient process.

I only pointed out that the government does stuff I don't like with my tax dollars because you said you object to your money being use to fund executions. I was trying to say in a nice way, why are your wishes for the use of tax monies special while mine aren't?

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

It's ultimately not about excuses, it's about what we do as a society to solve our problems. And killing humans, criminally, or sanctioned by law, doesn't strike me as the answer to any question. .

I think you raised a very valid point about the state being in charge of the process to prevent vigilantism from running amok.

I view laws as simple as punishment. You break the law you should pay a price; whether that be a fine, jail sentence or execution. Rehablitation and deterance are simply extras that may or may not come along for the ride. Obviously there has to be some correlation between the severity of the crime and the punishement.

That's where we diverge. I don't view hanging out in prision, lifting weights, going to school, doing a (albiet menial) job, running with gangs, and generally having zero responsibility for the rest of your life as any form of punishement, let alone being on the same level as raping a girl, burrying her alive in a trashbag and letting her sufficate.

I especially don't view life in prison as 'punishment' for the types of criminals that generally would rather check out of society and have zero responsibility for the rest of their lives anyway.

[vaticanplum]

Ltlabner, I think you have a sort of misguided view of the life led by prisoners who have committed crimes of this caliber. They're not lifting weights in state-of-the-art facilities and taking college classes. Life-timers in maximum security facilities are not the same as criminals doing five or ten years for drug dealing.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by vaticanplum

Ltlabner, I think you have a sort of misguided view of the life led by prisoners who have committed crimes of this caliber. They're not lifting weights in state-of-the-art facilities and taking college classes. Life-timers in maximum security facilities are not the same as criminals doing five or ten years for drug dealing.

Ok, so then what? They sit in their cells all day?

Again, I don't see checking out of society, having no responsibility and being cared for along the way as a punishment.

[George Foster]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

human life is irreducible.

http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/20...baby-survives/

[vaticanplum]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

Again, I don't see checking out of society, having no responsibility and being cared for along the way as a punishment.

Wow. I'd like to see what you'd think after being "cared for" for a week in a maximum security prison.

Responsibility may be something that people want to avoid, but it is part of what makes us human, not least of all because it's inherently tied to freedom. Stripping a person of all responsibility takes away their freedom, their daily life, and in essense anything worth living for. I don't exactly see that as living the high life.

[George Foster]

Originally Posted by vaticanplum

Wow. I'd like to see what you'd think after being "cared for" for a week in a maximum security prison.

Responsibility may be something that people want to avoid, but it is part of what makes us human, not least of all because it's inherently tied to freedom. Stripping a person of all responsibility takes away their freedom, their daily life, and in essense anything worth living for. I don't exactly see that as living the high life.

I'd take it over what Jessica went through

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by vaticanplum

Responsibility may be something that people want to avoid, but it is part of what makes us human, not least of all because it's inherently tied to freedom. Stripping a person of all responsibility takes away their freedom, their daily life, and in essense anything worth living for. I don't exactly see that as living the high life.

And what exactly does a person who murders, rapes and reeks havoc on society have to live for? What sort of great things have they aspired to? What sort of great positive imprints have they made on society?

Are the folks who commit crimes worthy of the death penalty generally carving out some great lives for themselves? Are they on some upward path in life? Are they on the verge of "turning it all around"?

Do these kinds of people sit around and pontificate the meaning of freedom? Do they consider the essense of anything worth living for? Do they see innocence and seek to protect it?

No. They kill. They rape. They take away all of these things from innocent people. They destroy things that are good. They can't fathom the concepts we hold dear, because they seek to destroy them. They couldn't begin to relate to "freedom" and "life" and "responsibility" otherwise they'd have made far different choices and wouldn't be killing and raping.

If you truely understand freedom, you would never, ever consider taking it away from an innocent person. You may be tempted, especially under emotional distress, but you wouldn't act on it when push came to shove.

Sure, if you ask the average inmate if they'd rather be free they'll say yes. But I'd suggest that if you can't even understand, relate to, or identify with the concepts of freedom, locking you in a cell doesn't even begin to dent the surface of 'punishment'.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

And what exactly does a person who murders, rapes and reeks havoc on society have to live for? What sort of great things have they aspired to? What sort of great positive imprints have they made on society?

Are the folks who commit crimes worthy of the death penalty generally carving out some great lives for themselves? Are they on some upward path in life? Are they on the verge of "turning it all around"?

Do these kinds of people sit around and pontificate the meaning of freedom? Do they consider the essense of anything worth living for? Do they see innocence and seek to protect it?

No. They kill. They rape. They take away all of these things from innocent people. They destroy things that are good. They can't fathom the concepts we hold dear, because they seek to destroy them. They couldn't begin to relate to "freedom" and "life" and "responsibility" otherwise they'd have made far different choices and wouldn't be killing and raping.

Sure, if you ask the average inmate if they'd rather be free they'll say yes. But I'd suggest that if you can't even understand, relate to, or identify with the concepts of freedom, locking you in a cell doesn't even begin to dent the surface of 'punishment'.

I think you have a somewhat black & white view of violent crime and the people that commit them. While it may be true that some violent criminals are purely socio-pathic predators, plenty of violent crimes are committed by highly intelligent people who could easily "fathom" the concepts of freedom, life & responsibility. That doesn't mean that they are good people, or that they value the lives of others in the way that most people do, but to suggest that they can't conceive of prison as a punishment, just because they are criminals, is extremely naive.

[vaticanplum]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

And what exactly does a person who murders, rapes and reeks havoc on society have to live for? What sort of great things have they aspired to? What sort of great positive imprints have they made on society?

Are the folks who commit crimes worthy of the death penalty generally carving out some great lives for themselves? Are they on some upward path in life? Are they on the verge of "turning it all around"?

Do these kinds of people sit around and pontificate the meaning of freedom? Do they consider the essense of anything worth living for? Do they see innocence and seek to protect it?

No. They kill. They rape. They take away all of these things from innocent people. They destroy things that are good. They can't fathom the concepts we hold dear, because they seek to destroy them. They couldn't begin to relate to "freedom" and "life" and "responsibility" otherwise they'd have made far different choices and wouldn't be killing and raping.

If you truely understand freedom, you would never, ever consider taking it away from someone else. You may be tempted, especially under emotional distress, but you wouldn't act on it when push came to shove.

Sure, if you ask the average inmate if they'd rather be free they'll say yes. But I'd suggest that if you can't even understand, relate to, or identify with the concepts of freedom, locking you in a cell doesn't even begin to dent the surface of 'punishment'.

I don't understand how your post relates back to what I was saying. You seem to have an idea that people who have committed very serious crimes are living a life they are not. Many maximum-security prisons in this country involve solitary confinement in a tiny windowless room for up to 23 hours a day. There is no work. There is no exercise. There is no "entertainment". I hear this argument a lot, that taxpayers are paying for prisoners to do things that they're simply not. Not these prisoners.

To me, that IS punishment. That is saying: we're giving you nothing else to do, literally nothing else on earth, but to think about what you did until your body gives out. It doesn't have to do with rehabilitation or freedom. It's punishment. It's really quite simple. The death penalty, by contrast, is revenge. It has far more to do with appeasing those left on earth than it does punishing the perpetrator.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by vaticanplum

To me, that IS punishment. That is saying: we're giving you nothing else to do, literally nothing else on earth, but to think about what you did until your body gives out. It doesn't have to do with rehabilitation or freedom. It's punishment. It's really quite simple. The death penalty, by contrast, is revenge. It has far more to do with appeasing those left on earth than it does punishing the perpetrator.

And I'm saying to the types of criminals who would commit these crimes it's not punishment at all. They don't understand the concept of freedom, so how in the world could taking it away punish them? Society is standing over them saying "bad person, now go sit and do nothing" and the criminal is thinking, "uh....ok....what's for dinner".

How many seconds of the day do you think they actually spend thinking about their crime?

Basically the "they have to think about it till they die" argument is an extension of "go to your room and think about what you did" on a grander scale. Whoopie do.