Don't underestimate the importance...

[M2]

Originally Posted by LincolnparkRed

My thought is if you are a weak team it will be found out over 162 games, last years team had a bunch of holes in it and they played over their heads for quite awhile but eventually they crapped out.

Can't be said better than that. Baseball's a cruel game that, more than any other sport I can think of, punctures your illusions.

[westofyou]

Back in 1988 the A's went out and got Don Baylor whom Sandy Alderson said. "Was obtained as much for his talisman quality as his bat." That was the end of Baylor's career and he was in the World Series each of his last 3 years with 3 different teams.

[M2]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Back in 1988 the A's went out and got Don Baylor whom Sandy Alderson said. "Was obtained as much for his talisman quality as his bat." That was the end of Baylor's career and he was in the World Series each of his last 3 years with 3 different teams.

Lonnie Smith is still the best talisman ever.

[redsmetz]

Just glancing back on the various championship teams the Reds have had, I will say those teams didn't generally have many older players; although I think more players are playing later than in previous times. I'm not certain of that, but I remember a thread here recently on a higher percentage of players playing into their late 30's and early 40's.

I did see that the 1919 Reds had a 35 year old Jake Daubert in his first season with the Reds. In 1922 it appears to me that he broke the club record for most homers in a season (12) and nearly broke the record for triples (he had 22) - not bad for a 38 year old. He finished his career in the 1924 season, falling ill towards its end. He died in October of 1924 following complications in surgery at the age of 40 (my grandfather had the same thing happen some 10 years later). But during his five years with our club, he was a pretty good ballplayer. (It should be noted that 40 back then was like Julio Franco still playing at nearly 50).

[redsmetz]

Originally Posted by M2

Lonnie Smith is still the best talisman ever.

Reggie Sanders hasn't been to shabby these last number of years until he came to KC.

[Johnny Footstool]

Originally Posted by redsmetz

Reggie Sanders hasn't been to shabby these last number of years until he came to KC.

There's not enough magic in all of Las Vegas to turn the Royals around.

[Wheelhouse]

Originally Posted by KronoRed

Agreed.

Nobody around here ridicules veterans who actually put up the numbers.

Hmmmm, took quite a while for people to admit they were wrong on Aurilia--it's a tough crack pipe for them to get their lips off of....

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by M2

All the "leadership" in the world will amount to nothing if you don't have the talent and that talent doesn't already have the necessary internal fortitude. When those two things are in place, then it doesn't matter who your elder statesman are. As long as they can contribute any mix of them will do.

I agree 100% that if a team doesn't have the tallent, no amount of Vet Presence will overcome that. I also agree 100% that vet presence and PTGTRW is often code for "this guy is marginal but we have to explain why we traded for him".

However, I think there is definatley a value of having vets around to pass down tips and tricks to help players improve. Why do you think players flock to a Soto or Bench? There's a value to having someone who's been there before to mentor someone who has not. Raw tallent only gets you so far if it isn't focused. The managers/coaches job is to focus that tallent, but there is no one better than a "peer" to go to when you are having problems and help you think about things in a different way.

I'd dissagree that any mix of "elderstatesman" will do. Bonds qualifies, but do you really want him in your clubhouse?

I think the Reds have over used the "vet presence" and PTGTRW bit soooooo much that many here roll their eyes in distain when they hear it. It's a shame because the addition of a vet who can actually contribute on the field, in addition to in the clubhouse is of critical importance, IMO. Young, raw, unfocused tallent isn't the answer to every problem.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by Wheelhouse

Hmmmm, took quite a while for people to admit they were wrong....

Fixed that for you.

[Redsland]

Originally Posted by Wheelhouse

Hmmmm, took quite a while for people to admit they were wrong on Aurilia…

Correct. First he had to put up the numbers, which was Krono's point.

[M2]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

I'd dissagree that any mix of "elderstatesman" will do. Bonds qualifies, but do you really want him in your clubhouse?

Say what you will about Barry Bonds, but he seems to be able to carry a baseball club on his back, even if he's lacking in the humanity department.

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

I think the Reds have over used the "vet presence" and PTGTRW bit soooooo much that many here roll their eyes in distain when they hear it. It's a shame because the addition of a vet who can actually contribute on the field, in addition to in the clubhouse is of critical importance, IMO. Young, raw, unfocused tallent isn't the answer to every problem.

The disdain comes when PTGTRW doesn't PTGTRW. I've been told guys who can't play SS worth a lick play the game the right way. I've been told pitchers who can't do much more than absorb abuse while they're on the mound play the game right way. I've been told guys who can't hit their way out of a wet paper bag play the game the right way.

Jose Reyes plays the game the right way. Grady Sizemore plays the game the right way.

I've got no problem in using vets to fill holes in accordance with their talents. It's when PTGTRW is used as a blanket protection for an otherwise exceedingly poor decision that fries my bacon.

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

I think the Reds have over used the "vet presence" and PTGTRW bit soooooo much that many here roll their eyes in distain when they hear it. It's a shame because the addition of a vet who can actually contribute on the field, in addition to in the clubhouse is of critical importance, IMO. Young, raw, unfocused tallent isn't the answer to every problem.

And that's the point. Just like the boy who cried wolf, the Reds cry "vet presence" so much we tend not to believe them any more even when a guy like Conine is signed. And youth isn't the answer every time. A lot of folks wanted Joey Votto on the Opening Day roster but he's barely hitting his weight in LOU. Doesn't mean that he's not a good player but his history has shown he takes a year to adjust to the next level. I don't think anyone is saying youth is the answer every time. But neither is "vet presence". You can't expect to win with a team full of scrappy vets just like you can't expect to win with a team full of raw rookies.

[KronoRed]

Originally Posted by Wheelhouse

Hmmmm, took quite a while for people to admit they were wrong on Aurilia--it's a tough crack pipe for them to get their lips off of....

Eh I don't see it, as much as people talk about Aurilia bashing it's nowhere near the dead horse that people bashing on Dunn is.

Until the 2nd half of last year after the "trade" there was always younger player on the roster people would have rather seen, in 05 it was Lopez and then EE, and again last year it was EE and Deno.

He's gone now so maybe we can all let it go.