Has this town turned on Dunn?

[Edskin]

WOY-- No doubt. That's why I don't claim anything I said to be fact.

But honestly, even back in little league there were players on my team that were MUCH, MUCH better than I was. They got significantly better results at 50% effort than I even dreamed of achieving at 100% effort.

Obviously, in order for Adam Dunn to accomplish what he's accomplished he has to be "trying." But yeah, I do wonder about if max effort/energy level>

[Edskin]

That's too bad Edskin.

I don't why you say that. It's not as if 100% of MLB players push themselves to 100% effort and concentration levels at all times.

It's like any other company or situation in life.

Think about where you work. There are probably people that do quite well while putting forth less effort, yet attaining equal or better results.

It's just human nature. The human condition. I certainly don't know the answers about Adam Dunn or anyone else, but I'm pretty sure that it applies as a general theory.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by Edskin

Obviously, in order for Adam Dunn to accomplish what he's accomplished he has to be "trying." But yeah, I do wonder about if max effort/energy level>

The way I look at it is that Adam Dunn is probably one of the 10 largest men to ever play baseball for an extended period of time. And I'm not sure any other 275 LB player has ever played as many games in the OF as Dunn has. IMO a guy that big is never going to be able to move fast enough or be co-ordinated enough to look like he's giving maximum effort level. Especially compared to a player like Freel who is buzzing around like a hummingbird.

[Edskin]

pedro-- It's not so much his actual body language. I'm not talking about fist-pumping or throwing water jugs.

It comes down to the fact that at a very young age, Dunn had great success and had equally obvious flaws. I figured by now through study, hard work, etc...he would have improved in those areas. Again, I may very well just be overrating his potential. But that's where my opinion stems from, not his body language.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by Edskin

pedro-- It's not so much his actual body language. I'm not talking about fist-pumping or throwing water jugs.

It comes down to the fact that at a very young age, Dunn had great success and had equally obvious flaws. I figured by now through study, hard work, etc...he would have improved in those areas. Again, I may very well just be overrating his potential. But that's where my opinion stems from, not his body language.

"Energy Level" to me suggests an observation about his play on the field, not his study or practice habits.

[Spitball]

Originally Posted by pedro

"Energy Level" to me suggests an observation about his play on the field, not his study or practice habits.

Except with the observable energy level we see on the field and the lack of progress in areas of weakness (fielding, making contact, etc.), we can logically assume he lacks the desire to improve his game.

[WVRed]

Originally Posted by MWM

Must have been via PM.

No, it was on this board, but it was in Dunn's first two years with the club. Hope OBM doesn't mind a quote from a year ago.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...dam+Dunn+trade

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

On pace for over 600 career home runs, 900+ OPS(probably will be closer to .950 when his career is over), and anywhere from 1500 to 2000 career walks. I think he will be a lock for the HOF when that time comes.

BTW...

Career Batting Average

Mike Schmidt-.267
Johnny Bench-.267
Reggie Jackson-.262
Ozzie Smith-.262
Gary Carter-.262
Harmon Killebrew-.256

Harmon Killebrew may be the best comparison to Dunn. He only hit over .280 twice in his career, and never hit over .288. His career batting is only .256 while Dunn's is .249, and you have to think Dunn's will go up once he continues to mature as a hitter.

Check out his bio. Similar to Dunn. Great OBP and SLG, plenty of strikeouts and walks, homeruns, and not so great batting averages. It appears Dunn hits more doubles than Harmon did, though as Dunn will be halfway to HK's career double total by the end of this year most likely.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by Edskin

You know what it REALLY boils down to with Dunn?

For me, it's something I don't like to talk about because it is very presumptious and it is potentially character-damaging if enough people say it. So, generally, I try to keep my mouth shut about it unless it's an obvious case.

And let me state clearly, that this is nothing more than a gut feeling. A semi-educated guess. I have no sources, no data.

But deep down, I really do question Dunn's desire, work ethic, intensity, love of the game, etc...

I say this because I see this guy with tremendous physical skills. And I also say this because at times, he seems to command the plate. But it makes no sense to me that over the past few years, he has seemed incapable of making any marked improvements in areas that are fairly obviously in need of improvement.

I have no problem with Dunn having a high K rate. No problem at all. But why does he have to challenge MLB records year after year in that department?

I look at a guy like Hatteberg, and I see a player that almost never "gives away" an AB. He also seems to be at the max concentration level. Now, his talent presents him from reaching any sort of great levels, but I feel as if he maxes out his tank.

I'm just not sure with Dunn.

In a way, it's a compliment. I'm admitting he's already a good player and thinking deep down that he could be even better. It's possible that I just overrate his actual talent and that I should just accept him for what he is.

Dunn seems like a really cool dude. Someone I'd want to hang with. A good teammate. I bet he's really fun to be around on long road trips. But I do wonder if perhaps he isn't a bit TOO content to be "what he is" as a player?

Like I said, this is a personal observation, based soley on watching sports over the years. Nothing more. But yes, I do think it those feelings fuel my attitude towards Dunn.

I couldn't agree more that's the exact same way I feel/have felt. I am just used to watching players improve as they grow in the sport. It's not often that you find a guy who had such high production for an extended period of time (more than a yr or yr and a half) that gets visibly worse at every turn thereafter.

The players that come to mind that fit the above description are guys who seemingly are one of a few type of guys, 1.) Just playing the game because they can and are in it for the money, 2.) Guys who feel like they have made it and no longer need to work, or 3.) Guys who are too busy living the "nightlife" to overly concern themselves with more than basic involvement in their JOB.

A couple of guys who's name comes to mind.
Raul Mondesi
Juan Gonzales

Just sayin' right or wrong that's the way I see it.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by Spitball

Except with the observable energy level we see on the field and the lack of progress in areas of weakness (fielding, making contact, etc.), we can logically assume he lacks the desire to improve his game.

oh please.

maybe he can't hit the low inside pitch b/c he's a giant human?

maybe he isn't the swiftest LF b/c he's one of the largest men to ever play out there?

the only thing that can be logically assumed here is that a bunch of people who have never met the guy are making statements they can't back up about a person they've never met.

baseball's a hard game in case you hadn't noticed. maybe he hasn't improved because he's not capable of it.

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by MWM

Turned? They were never high enough on the guy to have to turn. He's never been appreciated by the masses. He's not Pete Rose and he's not Albert Pujols. I bet he can't wait to go somewhere else.

If I'm Adam Dunn I would love to get traded to a town where I either A) have a legitimate chance to win and see the playoffs or B) might be appreciated and respected for what I bring to the team.

When Dunn tore up the minors in 2000 and 2001, this town saddled him with Griffey as the mainstays for the offense that would pound homers and plate runs and put us into the playoffs. It's 2007, and only last year did the Reds remotely sniff any delusion of postseason grandeur.

For Adam's sake, I hope he gets traded and goes on to complete what should be a HOF career. For the Reds sake, I hope that trade comes back to haunt us as almost Ruth-esque or Robinson-esque. I hope years down the road, we're all talking about how we never should have traded Adam Dunn.

[KronoRed]

/\ Get ready to be told you are not a real Reds fan

[pedro]

Originally Posted by Highlifeman21

For the Reds sake, I hope that trade comes back to haunt us as almost Ruth-esque or Robinson-esque. I hope years down the road, we're all talking about how we never should have traded Adam Dunn.

why on earth would you want that?

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Highlifeman21

If I'm Adam Dunn I would love to get traded to a town where I either A) have a legitimate chance to win and see the playoffs or B) might be appreciated and respected for what I bring to the team.

When Dunn tore up the minors in 2000 and 2001, this town saddled him with Griffey as the mainstays for the offense that would pound homers and plate runs and put us into the playoffs. It's 2007, and only last year did the Reds remotely sniff any delusion of postseason grandeur.

For Adam's sake, I hope he gets traded and goes on to complete what should be a HOF career. For the Reds sake, I hope that trade comes back to haunt us as almost Ruth-esque or Robinson-esque. I hope years down the road, we're all talking about how we never should have traded Adam Dunn.

If he doesn't improve his game, no city is going to embrace him for the game he brings. There will be groups of guys everywhere that will appreciate him, but nowhere will take a liking to him so long as he still plays horrible defense, strikes out 185+ times a year, hits .250 and fails time and time again with runners on base.

I don't have a problem with Dunn, but that is all the truth.

[MWM]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

If he doesn't improve his game, no city is going to embrace him for the game he brings. There will be groups of guys everywhere that will appreciate him, but nowhere will take a liking to him so long as he still plays horrible defense, strikes out 185+ times a year, hits .250 and fails time and time again with runners on base.

I don't have a problem with Dunn, but that is all the truth.

You're probably right, but I think it all depends on expectations. When Adam came up he was supposed to become one of the elite power hitters in the game. I think most people thought he had MVP potential. That's a big part of why his lack or progression had led to such a distaste for him in Cincy. If he was in another organization that didn't need him to be "the guy" it could be different. Plus, they would know what they're getting up front. He might not be beloved, but he might not be the object of scorn like he is in Cincy.

[dman]

Originally Posted by MWM

This is probably the most inaccurate statement that gets said more often than anything else in the history of this site. There just simply isn't any of the fan you're talking about. Even the most ardent of Adam Dunn fans realize he has plenty of faults. Yet we keeping having to read about these fans that don't exist.

MWM, this isn't exactly true neither. I remember when this site went to the rep point system seeing several regular good posters here lose valuable rep points because they made a comment about A.D. that somebody obviously disagreed with.

I try to avoid posting about Dunn, but I'm with edskin on this issue. I'm somewhere down the middle with him. I'm the first to admit, I'm not a stat savvy (sp?) person. I see things at face value. With Dunn, I see a player who hits some monster home runs, draws an incredible amount of walks. But, 200 K's a season and only reeling in around 100 RBI's or so for 40 H.R. seasons?

To me, Dunn is a victim, as are a number of Reds players, of this team not having a real leader in the clubhouse, be it a player, manager, or coach. Not having a person to light a fire under Adam's behind has caused him to become complacent in his game.