Has this town turned on Dunn?

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by pedro

why on earth would you want that?

Because then being right would taste like steak and eggs?

[Yachtzee]

Personally, I feel like Adam Dunn was better when he first came up because he had such a great "eye" for the strike zone. Unfortunately, from what I could tell as an outsider, persons in the manager's office felt he shouldn't take so many walks because he wasn't driving in runs. There was a lot of pressure on Dunn to be more aggressive. I can't help but think that all those managers and hitting coaches trying to "fix" him ended up just causing him to make poor choices and strike out more. That is reason #1 why I can't stand it when I hear people talk about "being more aggressive at the plate." I'd much rather batters wait until they get a pitch they can handle or take the walk than chase something out of the zone in an attempt to hit behind the runner or get that all important sac fly.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by Yachtzee

Personally, I feel like Adam Dunn was better when he first came up because he had such a great "eye" for the strike zone. Unfortunately, from what I could tell as an outsider, persons in the manager's office felt he shouldn't take so many walks because he wasn't driving in runs. There was a lot of pressure on Dunn to be more aggressive. I can't help but think that all those managers and hitting coaches trying to "fix" him ended up just causing him to make poor choices and strike out more. That is reason #1 why I can't stand it when I hear people talk about "being more aggressive at the plate." I'd much rather batters wait until they get a pitch they can handle or take the walk than chase something out of the zone in an attempt to hit behind the runner or get that all important sac fly.

Agree completely.

[GAC]

Originally Posted by Edskin

I think most casual fans probably feel that way about Dunn.

That's the key.... the casual fan. And the majority of your fans fall into the casual fan category. And when we say "casual fan", it's not meant to infer they are ignorant or don't have a love/passion for their team. But where I work, where an overwhelming majority fall into the range - love to talk BA; but have no idea what OPS is, the value of OB%, runs allowed, runs scored, etc. - they do not hold a fair assessment of Adam Dunn. They all seem to say the same thing - K's way too much and can't hit in the clutch. Most want him traded that I have talked to.

QUESTION: did they come to that assessment on their own, via observation, or has that "belief" been promoted by people within the media?

I like Dunn; but the guy does have some flaws in his game. I don't know if he is worth the 13 Mil next year though. I've watched every game, and have been to four so far this year, and our corner OFers are defensive liabilities out there. It's almost an embarassment.

But I don't believe, as far as position in the batting order, that Narron utilizes Dunn properly. Anyone who bats Dunn 6th is an idiot IMHO.

[NJReds]

I think the perceived backlash comes from the fact that there are many more outlets for fans to express their frustrations with a player (message boards, talk radio, etc.). Twenty years ago, this was all water cooler talk and much harder to gauge. Dunn's the lightning rod, no doubt. I can only imagine what Dave Winfield would've gone through with the Yankees in the early 80s (beyond the harsh media criticism).

The good thing about Dunn is he doesn't seem visually affected by the criticism, which most likely drives the people who are most vocal against him even more upset.

[NJReds]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Because then being right would taste like steak and eggs?

That seems like the other extreme of those who root against Dunn (or any player) so that their postings on an anonymous message board are proven correct. At some point, it becomes less about being a fan of a team and more about the personal satisfaction that a bunch of strangers think that you're smart. Unless, of course, you were kidding.

[LINEDRIVER]

It dawned on me a few days ago that Dunn could very well rack up 3,000 career K's, easily surpassing Reggie Jackson's all-time mark of 2,597.

Dunn currently has 1017 K's in 3072 AB's. At that rate, which is 33.1%, he would need approx 9000 AB's to hit the 3000 mark.

He is in his 7th season. 18 years of at least 500 AB's and he's got his 9000/3000. However, he might have 650-700 HR's by that time so it should be interesting to see what comes first....700 or 3000.

[Matt700wlw]

After watching Dunn last night, I'm on my John Kerry trading Dunn bandwagon.

I can't decide from day to day if I want to trade him or not. I keep flip flopping on the issue.



When he's in a slump, it's easy to say "trade him"....when he's hot, it's tough.

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by pedro

The way I look at it is that Adam Dunn is probably one of the 10 largest men to ever play baseball for an extended period of time. And I'm not sure any other 275 LB player has ever played as many games in the OF as Dunn has. IMO a guy that big is never going to be able to move fast enough or be co-ordinated enough to look like he's giving maximum effort level.

I agree with pedro. Even when he's running at full speed he's not going to look like he's running hard because he's just so big. I think it was Friday night when Dunn hit a ball to the wall and stopped at 2nd instead of trying for a triple. I think I detected a few boos probably from people who thought he should have been in with a triple. Maybe Ryan Freel could have gone to 3rd on that but he probably would have been thrown out. Now maybe Dunn would have endeared himself to some fans by sliding headfirst into 3rd and getting thrown out. I prefer he remain at 2nd if he doesn't feel he can make it to 3rd. Outs bad. Baseruners good.

Originally Posted by Yachtzee

Personally, I feel like Adam Dunn was better when he first came up because he had such a great "eye" for the strike zone. Unfortunately, from what I could tell as an outsider, persons in the manager's office felt he shouldn't take so many walks because he wasn't driving in runs. There was a lot of pressure on Dunn to be more aggressive. I can't help but think that all those managers and hitting coaches trying to "fix" him ended up just causing him to make poor choices and strike out more.

I think this could be very true. For all of the people that complain about Dunn not improving, it seems like he has changed his approach at the plate over the several years that he has been here. Perhaps he is trying to please everybody and he ends up pleasing no one. Failure to improve on your weaknesses doesn't necessarily mean you aren't working to improve on them. We heard how he was working on improving his fielding. While he's not the Gold Glover that he has said he would like to be, I don't think he has regressed this year.

Originally Posted by GAC

I like Dunn; but the guy does have some flaws in his game. I don't know if he is worth the 13 Mil next year though. I've watched every game, and have been to four so far this year, and our corner OFers are defensive liabilities out there. It's almost an embarassment.

Sometimes people on here act like it's a mortal sin to pay anyone in this market anythng over $10M a year. Perhaps people would be happier if everyone made no more than $4-5M a year.

In baseball there are two commodities that are highly valued. One is good starting pitching. That is why Jeff Suppan and Ted Lilly and Gil Meche and Jeff Weaver all commanded a lot of money on the free agent market this off season. None of these guys are in the class of a Roy Oswalt or a Jake Peavey or a Johann Santana. Yet because starting pitching is so highly valued, those free agents commanded quite a bit of money.

The other commodity that is highly valued is power. A-Rod isn't making $25M cause of his glove. Soriano didn't sign that huge contract with the Cubs because he was a good average hitter. Carlos Lee didn't get all that money from HOU because he is a good LFer. They are all getting their money because they can hit for power. Just like starting pitching, if everyone had it, it wouldn't be so expensive. Dunn is going to make at least $13M because he can hit 40 HRs a year and he is on the market. Now whether Krivsky decides to keep him or not is irrelevant. If he keeps him, he's going to have to pay him that kind of money. That's the price of doing business. It'd be nice if you cold have a guy like Ryan Howard making under $1M a year and still give you all that power for a below market price. But within a few years, he is going to command market value for the power he brings to the table. We can't afford Dunn? We've been paying $12M a year for Jr.s services for going on 8 years now. Since then the payroll has doubled. There's a new ballpark and more Reds games are on TV. The Reds aren't in the poorhouse by any means. They don't bring in the revenue the Yankees do but this is Cincinnati, not New York City. They may say they aren't doing all right but they are doing just fine. You don't have to pay every Tom, Dick or Harry $10 a year but you can afford paying a player or three $10M a year even in this city.

But, like any other commodity, power can be traded or sold. If there are teams out there that are willing to pay for power, the Reds should by all means look to see what they can get for a Dunn. There are some teams on the west coast that are in the hunt for the playoffs who need power. Wayne should play these teams off of each other to see who can give him the most for Dunn. The Reds are holding all the cards. He's not going to be a free agent if he stays here unless the Reds want him to be. No need for a fire sale in this case. If Wayne doesn't get an offer that brings good value back, he can just tell the other teams that the Reds are going to keep him unless the offer is sweetened. We've had him for this long, what's another year?

[RANDY IN INDY]

Sometimes people on here act like it's a mortal sin to pay anyone in this market anythng over $10M a year.

They've been conditioned by the front office of the team for years.

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by pedro

why on earth would you want that?

The Reds need to learn how to evaluate talent.

So far, they've shown an inept ability to do so.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by Highlifeman21

The Reds need to learn how to evaluate talent.

So far, they've shown an inept ability to do so.

So you want them to make a bad trade to prove a point? Great.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by Matt700wlw

After watching Dunn last night, I'm on my John Kerry trading Dunn bandwagon.

I can't decide from day to day if I want to trade him or not. I keep flip flopping on the issue.



When he's in a slump, it's easy to say "trade him"....when he's hot, it's tough.

Please keep your political commentary to yourself. thanks.

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by pedro

So you want them to make a bad trade to prove a point? Great.

My point is that trading him is a bad trade. Period.

13.5 Mil seems like a bargain to me for the type of offensive production he offers.

Pay him 15 Mil a year, and lock him up til he's 32. By that time, I'm hoping this organization could get its collective act together to put a winning team together.

[dman]

Originally Posted by Highlifeman21

The Reds need to learn how to evaluate talent.

So far, they've shown an inept ability to do so.

Not only are they bad at evaluating talent, every manager from Bob Boone through the present have been terrible stewards of the talent we have.