A's designate Milton Bradley for assignment

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by Chip R

I guess I'm a little confused as to why the Reds would want him. Have they instituted a new rule that allows for a 4th OFer?

I'm not sure Bradley could play CF, but Bradley would be a better option in the OF than Freel. Dunn is the constant in LF, Hamilton would be the everyday in CF, which leaves Griffey and Bradley in RF.

I really look at it as an upgrade over Ryan Freel. And an insurance policy for Griffey.

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by Benihana

Um, exactly how does anything prove they have more outfield depth than we do? I think KGJ, Hamilton, and Dunn would all start over any of their guys, maybe Swisher notwithstanding. Not to mention Bruce and possibly even Votto coming out of the minor leagues, your logic does not hold up AT ALL.

To understand Highlifeman, you must also understand that he is still very upset that Ben Broussard is not the Reds' starting 1B. I think that's all that needs to be said. Chris Denorfia is a fringe major league outfielder. That's all.

I liked the trade then and I like it now.

Obviously the A's feel they have OF depth to spare if they can jettison Milton Bradley.

As for Ben Broussard, I'm over that. I'm over picking Brandon Larson over Russell Branyan as well.

The Denorfia move still stings b/c it signifies a problem with the Reds' ability to judge/evaluate talent.

You don't at all find it curious as to why the A's would obtain a player out for the year?

As for Chris Denorfia being a fringe major leaguer, we'll have to agree to disagree at that assessment.

But I do appreciate the cheap, personal attack in your post. Thanks.

[Benihana]

Originally Posted by Highlifeman21

Obviously the A's feel they have OF depth to spare if they can jettison Milton Bradley.

As for Ben Broussard, I'm over that. I'm over picking Brandon Larson over Russell Branyan as well.

The Denorfia move still stings b/c it signifies a problem with the Reds' ability to judge/evaluate talent.

You don't at all find it curious as to why the A's would obtain a player out for the year?

As for Chris Denorfia being a fringe major leaguer, we'll have to agree to disagree at that assessment.

But I do appreciate the cheap, personal attack in your post. Thanks.

Its not a cheap, personal attack. I'm simply noting that in my opinion, you tend to overvalue these overperformers at the minor league level, ignoring the production level they've put up at the major league level. The truth of the matter is that Denorfia is turning 27 in two weeks, he will be almost 28 before he even gets a chance to contribute at the major league level, something he has yet to do. Not to mention, the Reds biggest strength is their outfield depth, and clearly their biggest weakness is pitching in general, and their bullpen specifically. The emergence of Josh Hamilton and the extension of Freel made Denorfia completely expendable. That's all I'm saying.

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by Highlifeman21

I'm not sure Bradley could play CF, but Bradley would be a better option in the OF than Freel. Dunn is the constant in LF, Hamilton would be the everyday in CF, which leaves Griffey and Bradley in RF.

I really look at it as an upgrade over Ryan Freel. And an insurance policy for Griffey.

Platooning Bradley and Jr.?

[traderumor]

As for Ben Broussard, I'm over that. I'm over picking Brandon Larson over Russell Branyan as well.

Replacement level will tend to do that. Looks like Denorfia might fit that mold as well.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by traderumor

Replacement level will tend to do that. Looks like Denorfia might fit that mold as well.

Yesterday I was sitting right above the Reds Bull Pen when McBeth was warming up, the sound that his throws made in the catchers glove was good enough for me to get over Chris DeNorfia.

DeNorfia gets more love then Jeff Jones, Mike Frank, Pat Watkins and Champ Summers on a good day, it's really quite phenomenal for a guy that has 144 MLB AB's, no pop and is out for his age 27 year.

Why it's Brady Clarkesque.

[Big Klu]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Yesterday I was sitting right above the Reds Bull Pen when McBeth was warming up, the sound that his throws made in the catchers glove was good enough for me to get over Chris DeNorfia.

DeNorfia gets more love then Jeff Jones, Mike Frank, Pat Watkins and Champ Summers on a good day, it's really quite phenomenal for a guy that has 144 MLB AB's, no pop and is out for his age 27 year.

Why it's Brady Clarkesque.

You forgot Steve Gibralter.

[Cyclone792]

Originally Posted by Benihana

Its not a cheap, personal attack. I'm simply noting that in my opinion, you tend to overvalue these overperformers at the minor league level, ignoring the production level they've put up at the major league level. The truth of the matter is that Denorfia is turning 27 in two weeks, he will be almost 28 before he even gets a chance to contribute at the major league level, something he has yet to do.

Performance at the minor league level is important, because oftentimes good performance at the minor league level (especially with regards to walks and plate discipline) translates to performance at the major league level. Anytime a high caliber defensive center fielder has career minor league numbers of .296/.377/.441/.818, I'm interested. Especially when that same guy strung together two straight seasons in AAA with a near .900 OPS. That's the type of cheap production a team like the Athletics is willing to take a chance on.

How about the Reds? Chris Denorfia never got much of a chance to contribute at the major league level because the Reds just flat out never gave him the chance. Though what's interesting is what playing he did get, he still put up a .278/.358/.382/.740 line. What's the average center fielder's line this season? .264/.326/.406/.732. Looks to me like Denorfia's rate of production is on par with the league average center fielder. Toss in well above average defense, and that's a quality big league player. Who wouldn't want that for a league minimum salary?

Also, while simultaneously stashing Denorfia away on the bench or in Louisville last season in 2006, the Reds draft another center fielder with a reputation of solid defense with their first round draft pick. That's the same college hitter who will be 23-years-old in less than four months and is impressing Dragons fans down in Low-A with a .706 OPS. This comes after impressing fans up in Billings with a .768 OPS in the Pioneer League.

So yea, the Reds drafted a player who looks to be a poor man's version of Chris Denorfia while simultaneously crapping on the original version of Chris Denorfia.

As for the Denorfia trade, I'm rather indifferent on it, partially because McBeth's playing this season while Denorfia isn't. But if you don't believe Chris Denorfia has any value to a big league club, then I can't wait to see your opinion of one Drew Stubbs.

[lollipopcurve]

So yea, the Reds drafted a player who looks to be a poor man's version of Chris Denorfia while simultaneously crapping on the original version of Chris Denorfia.

Drafted as a college senior, developed (including a stint in the AFL), put on the 40-man roster, promoted to the major leagues and given 150+ ABs.... how is this crapping on a player?

[Cyclone792]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

Drafted as a college senior, developed (including a stint in the AFL), put on the 40-man roster, promoted to the major leagues and given 150+ ABs.... how is this crapping on a player?

How quickly was Denorfia discarded after Kearns was traded away? One week or so? He wasn't able to even get back in the lineup after that until the last two weeks of the regular season altogether. And yet this was a guy who should have been given a realistic chance to start regularly in center field in spring training of last year.

I'm glad the Reds got what looks to be a decent big league reliever in return, but Denorfia's skill set is one that he deserved a much bigger look than he ever got.

[Benihana]

Originally Posted by Cyclone792

Performance at the minor league level is important, because oftentimes good performance at the minor league level (especially with regards to walks and plate discipline) translates to performance at the major league level. Anytime a high caliber defensive center fielder has career minor league numbers of .296/.377/.441/.818, I'm interested. Especially when that same guy strung together two straight seasons in AAA with a near .900 OPS. That's the type of cheap production a team like the Athletics is willing to take a chance on.

How about the Reds? Chris Denorfia never got much of a chance to contribute at the major league level because the Reds just flat out never gave him the chance. Though what's interesting is what playing he did get, he still put up a .278/.358/.382/.740 line. What's the average center fielder's line this season? .264/.326/.406/.732. Looks to me like Denorfia's rate of production is on par with the league average center fielder. Toss in well above average defense, and that's a quality big league player. Who wouldn't want that for a league minimum salary?

Also, while simultaneously stashing Denorfia away on the bench or in Louisville last season in 2006, the Reds draft another center fielder with a reputation of solid defense with their first round draft pick. That's the same college hitter who will be 23-years-old in less than four months and is impressing Dragons fans down in Low-A with a .706 OPS. This comes after impressing fans up in Billings with a .768 OPS in the Pioneer League.

So yea, the Reds drafted a player who looks to be a poor man's version of Chris Denorfia while simultaneously crapping on the original version of Chris Denorfia.

As for the Denorfia trade, I'm rather indifferent on it, partially because McBeth's playing this season while Denorfia isn't. But if you don't believe Chris Denorfia has any value to a big league club, then I can't wait to see your opinion of one Drew Stubbs.

My opinion of one Drew Stubbs has been well documented on this board- he's terrible. It was a bad pick at the time and it is a bad pick now. That doesn't make Denorfia any better. He may be an OK major league outfielder in time, but there was absolutely no room for him on this Reds team, and with Jay Bruce coming soon there isn't much room for him in the future. Given that he was out for the year and the Reds need arms in the bullpen in the worst way, I am absolutely 100% for the trade. Period.

[Cyclone792]

Originally Posted by Benihana

My opinion of one Drew Stubbs has been well documented on this board- he's terrible. It was a bad pick at the time and it is a bad pick now. That doesn't make Denorfia any better. He may be an OK major league outfielder in time, but there was absolutely no room for him on this Reds team, and with Jay Bruce coming soon there isn't much room for him in the future. Given that he was out for the year and the Reds need arms in the bullpen in the worst way, I am absolutely 100% for the trade. Period.

As I said, I'm indifferent on the trade itself. But that's mostly because McBeth's playing this season and Denorfia's not.

What's interesting is that the "depth" of the Reds outfield is really an overrated proposition. Sure, the Reds used to have depth ... but it's disappearing quickly. Pena's gone, Kearns is gone, and now Denorfia's gone. Griffey's gone no later than 2008, and all the accounts I've seen suggests the Reds are much more interested in unloading Dunn rather than resigning him. That leaves Josh Hamilton, Jay Bruce, who was just promoted to AA last week, Ryan Freel, and the world of the unknown for 2009 .. and Freel himself is liable to end his career with a collision each time he walks to the outfield.

Norris Hopper certainly isn't an answer. Nobody has any idea if Chris Dickerson's 170 plate appearances in Louisville is indicative of development or a fluke. Cody Strait is going backwards. And Drew Stubbs is Drew Stubbs.

The Reds may appear to have outfield depth now, but the Griffey and Dunn trains are ready to pull out of the station themselves. When that happens, the outfield could be a problem.

[Benihana]

Originally Posted by Cyclone792

As I said, I'm indifferent on the trade itself. But that's mostly because McBeth's playing this season and Denorfia's not.

What's interesting is that the "depth" of the Reds outfield is really an overrated proposition. Sure, the Reds used to have depth ... but it's disappearing quickly. Pena's gone, Kearns is gone, and now Denorfia's gone. Griffey's gone no later than 2008, and all the accounts I've seen suggests the Reds are much more interested in unloading Dunn rather than resigning him. That leaves Josh Hamilton, Jay Bruce, who was just promoted to AA last week, Ryan Freel, and the world of the unknown for 2009 .. and Freel himself is liable to end his career with a collision each time he walks to the outfield.

Norris Hopper certainly isn't an answer. Nobody has any idea if Chris Dickerson's 170 plate appearances in Louisville is indicative of development or a fluke. Cody Strait is going backwards. And Drew Stubbs is Drew Stubbs.

The Reds may appear to have outfield depth now, but the Griffey and Dunn trains are ready to pull out of the station themselves. When that happens, the outfield could be a problem.

Now you're really stretching. IF both Griffey and Dunn are traded, which by the way, I'd give <20% chance of happening, then you might say the Reds could use an extra OF. Even in that case, they'd still have Hamilton and Bruce manning 2 of the 3 spots for the next 5+ years (at which time Denorfia will be 33 years old), and that doesn't even include Freel, who has achieved much more success at the major league level than Denorfia ever has.

More likely, if either one is traded, it will be just one of them. And the Reds will still have four guys on the OF depth chart that still would have been ahead of Denorfia (Dunn/Jr, Hamilton, Freel, Bruce). This also ignores the possibility that Votto may be roaming the OF by the end of the summer, which would make Denorfia the #5 (or 6, if there's no trade) outfielder in the organization. Can you say, spare part?

[Cyclone792]

Originally Posted by Benihana

Now you're really stretching. IF both Griffey and Dunn are traded, which by the way, I'd give <20% chance of happening, then you might say the Reds could use an extra OF. Even in that case, they'd still have Hamilton and Bruce manning 2 of the 3 spots for the next 5+ years (at which time Denorfia will be 33 years old), and that doesn't even include Freel, who has achieved much more success at the major league level than Denorfia ever has.

More likely, if either one is traded, it will be just one of them. And the Reds will still have four guys on the OF depth chart that still would have been ahead of Denorfia (Dunn/Jr, Hamilton, Freel, Bruce). This also ignores the possibility that Votto may be roaming the OF by the end of the summer, which would make Denorfia the #5 (or 6, if there's no trade) outfielder in the organization. Can you say, spare part?

Griffey is 37-years-old and has an option in 2009 for $16.5 million that most likely will not be picked up. Dunn would need a contract extension to be signed on with the Reds during the 2009 season.

There's no stretching when I state that the chances of Dunn and Griffey both being gone by 2009 is a real reality that will most likely happen. You've obviously failed to take any of this into account.

[Always Red]

Originally Posted by Benihana

Can you say, spare part?

I think it's obvious that the Reds FO agrees with you, Beni.

I'll be interested to see what Deno can do in a full time role in CF, if the A's give him that opportunity next year. I agree with what Cyclone has written concerning Deno, but to me, that's water under the bridge.

Brady Clark (whom Deno is often compared to) looked like a big loss, early on, but his career did not stay on track.

Denorfia may turn out to be a spare part, as you say. But he earned a better chance than he got here, with the numbers he put up for this organization throughout the minor leagues, especially his past two years in AAA. I do agree that Hamilton's presence and immediate production pushed Deno one step down the ladder.