The Cincinnati Mentality and the Reds

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

Hustle isn't just running fast to cover bad routes to the ball.

It includes getting to the ball-park first to hit the batting cage and review tape. It includes spending extra time with the batting instructor when you are in a funk. It includes taking extra in-field practice if needed. It includes hitting the weight room when you'd rather be driving your new Porche.

I've never figured out why some here don't care for hard work.

You gotta have the tallent. No doubt there. But without hard work you will never maximize all you can do.

And Ken Griffey Jr. still gets labled as lazy despite the fact that he put in long, long days rehabbing. As you describe, a lot of the "hustle" doesn't take place in front of the fans.

ARod, from all acounts, is one of the hardest working players in baseball. Yes, he's also supremely talented. I imagine that if we could somehow compare the reality of how hard a player works off the field with the perception, we'd see a very different picture. I bet many fans assume that a lot of very talented players slack off more than their less talented counterparts.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

And Ken Griffey Jr. still gets labled as lazy despite the fact that he put in long, long days rehabbing. As you describe, a lot of the "hustle" doesn't take place in front of the fans.

Well, I think that part of it is directly atributable to the "blue collar" mentality. They (sorry to be sterotpical) generally want to see tangiable signs of hard work. Run to your position, run hard, freak out and toss a water cooler when you strike out, etc. Cincy is really a blue-collar town. And again, generally speaking blue collar folks want to see something they can identify with...hard work, oriented towards manual effort.

The same as an hourly worker deriding management for "sitting around" all day when, in fact, both hourly and management are working hard...just in different ways.

Personally, I'm far more interested in hard work, however it manifests itself, not just flashy displays that are easy to identify.

[westofyou]

freak out and toss a water cooler when you strike out, etc.

Football mentality applied to baseball.

It never really fits does it, baseball is a series of one on one battles that are awash in al sorts of variables, played over and over for six months of the year.

Football is head to head war in a team formation, built up for a week and applied to a 3 hour window only 16 times a year, all displayed in a fit of energy that would make Neal Cassidy blush.

The greatest disservice baseball has done to fans is that it looks so damn easy half the time.

But it ain't it's a grind of major proportions and a game that is truly a game of inches, not brute force and war room charting.

[MWM]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

I've never figured out why some here don't care for hard work.

Oh please! Who here "doesn't care for hard work"? That's just silly.

I think everyone appreciates hard work.

[RANDY IN INDY]

I liked what John Wooden said about the emotional mentality of some. He said, "For every artificial peak you create, there is a valley. I don't like valleys. Games are lost in valleys. Therefore, I wasn't much for giving speaches to stir up emotions before a game. If you need emotionalism to make you perform better, than sooner or later you'll be vulnerable, an emotion away from being anable to function at your level of ability. I prefer thorough preparation over some device to make us "rise to the occasion". Let others try to rise suddenly to a higher level than they had attained previously. I want to have already attained that level through preparation and be there to begin with. A speach by me shouldn't be necessary. My ideal is an ever-rising graph line that peaks with your final performance."

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC

I liked what John Wooden said about the emotional mentality of some. He said, "For every artificial peak you create, there is a valley. I don't like valleys. Games are lost in valleys. Therefore, I wasn't much for giving speaches to stir up emotions before a game. If you need emotionalism to make you perform better, than sooner or later you'll be vulnerable, an emotion away from being anable to function at your level of ability. I prefer thorough preparation over some device to make us "rise to the occasion". Let others try to rise suddenly to a higher level than they had attained previously. I want to have already attained that level through preparation and be there to begin with. A speach by me shouldn't be necessary. My ideal is an ever-rising graph line that peaks with your final performance."

Good points, Randy. I think that's especially important to remember over a 162 game season over a 6 month period.

[pedro]

freak out and toss a water cooler when you strike out,

all that tells me is that someone may have anger management issues. it sure doesn't tell me that a guy's a hard worker.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by MWM

Oh please! Who here "doesn't care for hard work"? That's just silly.

I think everyone appreciates hard work.

Even when it manifests itself as running hard and scrappyness?

Yea, didn't think so.

Look, all I am saying is that in the rush to be clever and point out that on-field hustle doesn't always mean tallent or skill, that ocassionally the impression is given that actual hard work is not appreciated.

It also means that fans that mean well, but identify with visable signs of hustle can also overlook the actual "behind-the-sceens" hard work (which is usually far more valuable).

[Yachtzee]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

Well, I think that part of it is directly atributable to the "blue collar" mentality. They (sorry to be sterotpical) generally want to see tangiable signs of hard work. Run to your position, run hard, freak out and toss a water cooler when you strike out, etc. Cincy is really a blue-collar town. And again, generally speaking blue collar folks want to see something they can identify with...hard work, oriented towards manual effort.

The same as an hourly worker deriding management for "sitting around" all day when, in fact, both hourly and management are working hard...just in different ways.

Personally, I'm far more interested in hard work, however it manifests itself, not just flashy displays that are easy to identify.

I don't think Cincinnati has a "blue-collar" mentality. Cleveland is far and away more "blue-collar" than Cincinnati and there is a different attitude toward sports teams and athletes here than there is in Cincinnati. Cincinnati's attitude towards it's athletes is sui generis, something unique in and of itself. When it comes to baseball, I'd say Cincinnati has a "Pete Rose" attitude that favors hustle above all else. Cleveland, and other blue collar towns I've been to, have a combination of a "put up or shut up" mentality when it comes to its own players, and a "circle the wagons" mentality when it comes to outsiders' opinions of the team. They essentially say "I can dis the Browns or the Indians because I'm from Cleveland, but you better not do it." They really identify with the teams.

Personally, I think Cincinnati's general attitude reflects the attitude of the Southern Germans that made up a sizable portion of the population in the early days of the town. It's a bit complex but there's this combination of laid-back politeness and finding pleasure in the simpler things in life, coupled with manic depression, self-loathing and an underlying current of prejudice (at least in some circles). When things are going good, Cincinnatians can kick back and enjoy it like the best of them. When things are going poorly, they're ready with the torches and pitchforks.

Of course Cincinnatians do love a good "hustler." It's almost funny that the two biggest things to come out of Cincinnati in the last half of the 20th Century were Charlie Hustle and Hustler Magazine.

[vaticanplum]

Originally Posted by Yachtzee

I don't think Cincinnati has a "blue-collar" mentality. Cleveland is far and away more "blue-collar" than Cincinnati and there is a different attitude toward sports teams and athletes here than there is in Cincinnati. Cincinnati's attitude towards it's athletes is sui generis, something unique in and of itself. When it comes to baseball, I'd say Cincinnati has a "Pete Rose" attitude that favors hustle above all else. Cleveland, and other blue collar towns I've been to, have a combination of a "put up or shut up" mentality when it comes to its own players, and a "circle the wagons" mentality when it comes to outsiders' opinions of the team. They essentially say "I can dis the Browns or the Indians because I'm from Cleveland, but you better not do it." They really identify with the teams.

Personally, I think Cincinnati's general attitude reflects the attitude of the Southern Germans that made up a sizable portion of the population in the early days of the town. It's a bit complex but there's this combination of laid-back politeness and finding pleasure in the simpler things in life, coupled with manic depression, self-loathing and an underlying current of prejudice (at least in some circles). When things are going good, Cincinnatians can kick back and enjoy it like the best of them. When things are going poorly, they're ready with the torches and pitchforks.

Of course Cincinnatians do love a good "hustler." It's almost funny that the two biggest things to come out of Cincinnati in the last half of the 20th Century were Charlie Hustle and Hustler Magazine.

As long as we're stereotyping, I pretty much totally agree with this.

As far as work ethic goes, I don't find Cincinnati to be a city with a better work ethic than any other American city -- that is to say, America as a whole has one of the strongest work ethics in the world. Cincinnati certainly seems to talk about it a lot more but that's about the only difference that I see. Further, I don't see what that has to do with baseball. Most baseball players are hard-working. New York is a hard-working city with a good baseball team. Kansas City is a hard-working city with a terrible baseball team. San Francisco is a city whose laid-back vibe belies its strong work ethic and it has a mediocre baseball team. It's apples and apples. Americans by and large work pretty hard and expect pretty much the same things out of their public figures and sports teams. I know of no baseball fan anywhere who takes pride in the members of his or her team who loaf.

Face it, in Cincinnati or anywhere else in America, all the talk of work ethic is always ultimately overrun by results. Paul O'Neill very visibly worked his butt off but when the team stopped winning the fans turned on him. If Mr. Loafy McLoafsalot* Adam Dunn had hit his walk-off grand slam in game 7 of the world series, he'd have been elected mayor and had the Suspension Bridge put under his tree the following Christmas. And that's a very typical and understandable mentality. The only reason we have the time on our hands to explore the human take on work ethic or the mentality of midwestern sports fans is because our team is so bad.

*tongue-in-cheek. I do not think Adam Dunn is a loafer.

[camisadelgolf]

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

Even when it manifests itself as running hard and scrappyness?

Yea, didn't think so.

Look, all I am saying is that in the rush to be clever and point out that on-field hustle doesn't always mean tallent or skill, that ocassionally the impression is given that actual hard work is not appreciated.

It also means that fans that mean well, but identify with visable signs of hustle can also overlook the actual "behind-the-sceens" hard work (which is usually far more valuable).

Hard work and hustle are always appreciated. Always. The problem is that most- if not all- fans have no earthy clue how hard a player works. Likewise, most folks have no idea how to properly identify "hustle" given the various body types for baseball players. In the end, it's perception and perception is far too often not reality.

Baseball is a game involving more randomness than most fans are willing to admit. Yet, the average fan ties "result" to "effort" consistently. If the result is less than what we want, we first assume it's due to a lack of effort and then look for visual clues demonstrating a lack of effort. It's backwards analysis and it's just flat out wrong. For example, Norris Hopper hustles. He plays hard. But Hopper doesn't produce. Yet, unfortunately, too many folks (Marty Brennaman included) think that his effort level is somehow relevant. It's not, but that's the antiquated thought process for such a player.

If you see a denigration of "scrappy", it's generally because the person writing the post is sick and tired of hearing that effort is somehow a substitute for actual performance.

[BCubb2003]

I'd consider Brandon Phillips' two stolen bases tonight the ultimate example of hustle. Greater than running out bases on balls or jumping into the stands after a foul ball.

[camisadelgolf]

Dunn could pay people to carry him to first base; as long as the Reds are winning, the casual fans, who greatly outnumber the "real" fans, are much happier.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

Hard work and hustle are always appreciated. Always. The problem is that most- if not all- fans have no earthy clue how hard a player works.

It also means that fans that mean well, but identify with visable signs of hustle can also overlook the actual "behind-the-sceens" hard work (which is usually far more valuable).

I copied part of my quote to demonstrate that we are saying the same thing. I agree that fans often overvalue the wrong forms of hustle. I place a premium on hard work, most casual fans want to see some tanagable "result" of hard work. Unfortunatley, those tangable results in many cases have nothing to do with producing runs.

But I'm glad you brought up "Chuck" Norris Hopper. The oft derided player who acomplished....

was recalled from Class AAA Louisville, where he was an International League All-Star and the Bats' Most Valuable Player (98g, .347, 25sb)...was the leading votegetter among IL All-Star outfielders...led the IL and ranked second in all of Class AAA with the highest batting average in Louisville franchise history (.347)...was Louisville's first batting champion since Cardinals farmhand Dmitri Young led the league in 1996...his BA ranked 12th among all minor league hitters...while with the Bats he struck out just 25 times in 383 plate apps...

Not too shabby. I imagine it took many hard hours of workouts, watching tape, time spent in the cage, etc to obtain what shoud be considered an acomplishment and the mark of the type of player that would be handy to have around......Yet here at Reds zone he's mocked as a result of the insinuation that he should replace Dunn (which is a horrable, horrable idea). That's what I meant about the "rush to be clever". This kid worked hard and achieved some good things in AAA, I'd call that hustle. Does that equal MLB success, maybe, maybe not. Do I want an entire team of Hoppers? Of course not. Do I want to see Hopper in the line-up every day? Oh God no.

But because he's somehow linked to Dunn, and becuase he's been praised by a certian evil radio broadcaster it's snide comments about [/insert dripping sarcasim and rolled eyes] "he's a run producer" [/end sarcasim] and routine mockery. Here's a kid who could be a usefull 4th OF type for a couple of years (especially considering the age of Jr, the injury-proneness of Hamilton and we don't want to see Freel out there every day) yet on RZ he's cast aside.