I'm so glad Wayne didn't.......

[berryluther]

Trade Arroyo for Reyes and Escobar. I don't know what we would have done without his 1 2/3 of 7 run ball last night.

Last year was a fluke this guy is a hack.

[durl]

We shouldn't forget that Arroyo had been doing quite well after he made some changes in his conditioning and diet.

[Jay Bruce]

Arroyo for Reyes and Escobar was a horrible trade offer that would have vastly undersold Arroyo. He makes 26.45 mllion over the next 3 years, which is a bargain for the current pitching market. Why trade that for a pitcher with mid-rotation upside and a 24 (25 in November) year old shortshop who is likly going to have to play second or third, and doesn't have the power to be a huge asset at third. That trade is just a bad use of resources for the Reds. Arroyo may have a crappy game once in a while, but he is still an above average pitcher locked up to a below market contract.

[Jefferson24]

[QUOTE=JArroyo may have a crappy game once in a while, but he is still an above average pitcher locked up to a below market contract.[/QUOTE]

Arroyo is 4 and 12 with a 4.72. I don't consider that above average.

He has decent "stuff" once in a while but the bottom line is does he win? The answer is he wins 17% of his starts. We could do better. If this is your number 2 guy then you've really got problems, which of course we do.

[boognish]

Originally Posted by Jay Bruce

Arroyo for Reyes and Escobar was a horrible trade offer that would have vastly undersold Arroyo. He makes 26.45 mllion over the next 3 years, which is a bargain for the current pitching market. Why trade that for a pitcher with mid-rotation upside and a 24 (25 in November) year old shortshop who is likly going to have to play second or third, and doesn't have the power to be a huge asset at third. That trade is just a bad use of resources for the Reds. Arroyo may have a crappy game once in a while, but he is still an above average pitcher locked up to a below market contract.

You wouldn't trade a third starter at below market value for a utility infielder and a AAAA arm?

I commend your excellent post, JB. Reyes is no great shakes and I am very surprised Escobar was not used as part of a package so that the Braves could continue their decade-and-a-half trend of fleecing every other MLB team for their prospects (Jason Schmidt and Jermaine Dye the only exceptions).

Of course, if Pete Mac is going to keep "Narroning" Arroyo out there for 125 pitches, we may as well trade him for a crate of rotten tomatoes, because they will likely pitch just as well.

[ChatterRed]

Alot of Arroy's losses were due to non-run support.

Some of it was due to exhaustion from over-use.

I use to see his fastball in the mid-90's and about mid-season he was only hitting 89. He is back up in the 90's now again.

[mroby85]

Originally Posted by berryluther

Trade Arroyo for Reyes and Escobar. I don't know what we would have done without his 1 2/3 of 7 run ball last night.

Last year was a fluke this guy is a hack.

if you watched him pitch this year you would know that his statistics aren't very accurate. especially in the Wins and Losses category. check the quality starts department, ill bet he's only behind harang, on the reds club, who is one of the best pitchers in the league.

[Jay Bruce]

Originally Posted by Jefferson24

Arroyo is 4 and 12 with a 4.72. I don't consider that above average.

He has decent "stuff" once in a while but the bottom line is does he win? The answer is he wins 17% of his starts. We could do better. If this is your number 2 guy then you've really got problems, which of course we do.

Actually, Arroyo has been a pretty similar pitcher to last year, where he had a 4.21 DIPS ERA, but was lucky in regards to balls put into play, as his BABIP was .279. This year, his DIPS ERA is 4.28, but with a .324 BABIP. If you want a true indication of Arroyos ability, combine his 2 years as a Red.

Also, wins and losses are probably the dumbest measure of a pitchers ability, because they are too team dependent. Last year, Jake Peavy went 11-14, while the far inferior Steve Trachsel went 15-8. Wins and losses just don't tell the the story about how good a pitcher is.

[BLEEDS]

Originally Posted by durl

We shouldn't forget that Arroyo had been doing quite well after he made some changes in his conditioning and diet.

I think he was on a fast-food bender with Andy Roddick the night before...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[Jay Bruce]

Originally Posted by boognish

You wouldn't trade a third starter at below market value for a utility infielder and a AAAA arm?

I commend your excellent post, JB. Reyes is no great shakes and I am very surprised Escobar was not used as part of a package so that the Braves could continue their decade-and-a-half trend of fleecing every other MLB team for their prospects (Jason Schmidt and Jermaine Dye the only exceptions).

Of course, if Pete Mac is going to keep "Narroning" Arroyo out there for 125 pitches, we may as well trade him for a crate of rotten tomatoes, because they will likely pitch just as well.

Thank you for the compliments. Once Saltalamacchia was traded, I had very little interest in trading Arroyo to Atlanta, unless a trade starting with Kelly Johnson could be discussed.

[keeganbrick]

Originally Posted by Jefferson24

Arroyo is 4 and 12 with a 4.72. I don't consider that above average.

He has decent "stuff" once in a while but the bottom line is does he win? The answer is he wins 17% of his starts. We could do better. If this is your number 2 guy then you've really got problems, which of course we do.

Considering thats one of the worst stats when evaluating a pitcher.

[jimbo]

Originally Posted by keeganbrick

Considering thats one of the worst stats when evaluating a pitcher.

Probably THE worst stat when evaluating a pitcher.

[HokieRed]

Would we want to pay Kyle Lohse 26.45 million for the next three years? If not, I'm not sure Arroyo is much of a deal at that price. This year they've been nearly identical pitchers. Over their whole careers, Arroyo has about a .5 advantage in ERA, but he's thrown about 60% of his total innings in the NL whereas Lohse has only thrown about 20% of his in the NL, so league factor is part of the difference. This is not to say Arroyo's not a useful pitcher. I'm glad we didn't send him to Atlanta for Reyes and Escobar, though I would have been delighted to see him go for Salty. My question is just about trying to assess how good a pitcher Arroyo is. It's been a tough question for Reds fans because it's all wrapped up with feelings about Krivsky. Certainly Arroyo has been one of his major claims to accomplishment. How much credit he deserves for that is a matter of question now as Arroyo seems to be returning to norm from last year's excellence.

[boognish]

Originally Posted by jimbo

Probably THE worst stat when evaluating a pitcher.

I would imagine that "number of balks" might tell you less

[boognish]

Originally Posted by Jay Bruce

Thank you for the compliments. Once Saltalamacchia was traded, I had very little interest in trading Arroyo to Atlanta, unless a trade starting with Kelly Johnson could be discussed.

My sentiments were pretty much the same: I am one of the ever-shrinking minority that is not that high on Salty...if he can't stay behind the plate his value takes a huge hit because IMO his bat is below average at 1B.

However, I do have quite a bit of man-love for Kelly Johnson. He is slugging .500 since May 1, with an .891 OPS; granted, Cox sits him against lefties quite a bit, but I like his patience and doubles power, and his defense will only get better with experience. I think he is one of the most underrated players in the game this season, and in spite of his injury history I would have demanded him back as well...an excellent call, you're on a roll today!