mike stanton!

[LvJ]

Any other team he would be DFA'd by now.

[GAC]

Originally Posted by LvJ

Any other team he would be DFA'd by now.

Looking at the state of numerous MLB team's bullpen struggles this year - I sincerely doubt it.

[RedLegSuperStar]

Stanton started the season off so horribly.. then he got in a groove where he was lights out. I think the Reds should just run him out there in big leads or just to retire a batter.. something to build that confidence back.

[Always Red]

Originally Posted by RedLegSuperStar

Stanton started the season off so horribly.. then he got in a groove where he was lights out. I think the Reds should just run him out there in big leads or just to retire a batter.. something to build that confidence back.

He was awful, and then he was very good, and now he is awful again.

garbage? Human waste? ....mmmm...not really, just bad relief pitching.

I think Wayne is going with these guys to see if they can pitch, to make a final decision on them before next year. There are only 6 weeks left in the Reds season, and this team needs to make a tough decision on Mike Stanton (especially), as they owe him a lot of money for next year, and an option for 2009, IIRC.

Stanton has pitched well for many, many years. He's never pitched this poorly before, but of late, that seems to happen to a lot of Reds relief pitchers, doesn't it?

I think we'll see a lot of Stanton and Majewski, and maybe even Coffey after Sept 1st, the rest of this season, so a decision can be made on them for next season. Personally, I'd love to see them both rebound, this team can use the help.

Coffey and Majewski seem to have suffered from the same malady, IMO- their FB's stopped moving at all (straight as an arrow), they are wild in the zone (ie- everything over the heart of the plate) and neither have a decent offspeed pitch to keep hitters guessing. I think those are things that can be fixed.

well, I hope so, anyway!

Stanton may just be out of gas. Kriv has been cursed this year, nearly everyone he signed or extended this year has been off-kilter, nearly all year.

[Roy Tucker]

I read this in this AM's Enquirer...

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...90398/1062/SPT

In his previous outing, Stanton gave up four runs without retiring a batter. Since coming off the disabled list July 4, his ERA is 8.15.

"It's one of those runs - not to make any excuses, because there are none," Stanton said. "If I make a good pitch, they foul it off. They're just not missing mistakes."

I've noticed this too. His problem is that he has lost bite off his breaking ball (i.e. stuff) and batters, even though fooled, can get enough of his "good" pitches to foul them off. I haven't looked up the numbers, but I'd imagine his number of pitches per batter is high.

Eventually, he has to put a pitch in the strike zone and, with diminished stuff, they are very hittable.

He's had a couple spells this year where he has pitched decently. But he has to be much more consistent than what he's been. I just don't think he has enough left in the tank and we won't see him pitching for the Reds next year.

[puca]

Originally Posted by Always Red

He was awful, and then he was very good, and now he is awful again.

He was awful, and then was very lucky, and now is awful again.

Even during his "good stretch" he was giving up a ton of baserunners. He just had the good fortune that they weren't crossing the plate. It happens sometimes. That is why ERA is not a good metric to use for relievers. Stuff-wise, Mike Stanton has be done for 2-3 years.

[wally post]

Originally Posted by puca

He was awful, and then was very lucky, and now is awful again.

Even during his "good stretch" he was giving up a ton of baserunners. He just had the good fortune that they weren't crossing the plate. It happens sometimes. That is why ERA is not a good metric to use for relievers. Stuff-wise, Mike Stanton has be done for 2-3 years.

ONLY our GM thought differently

[MississippiRed]

Originally Posted by Ron Madden

We keep hearing the Reds can't afford to give Adam Dunn a $3M raise.

Yet they can pay Stanton $3M to do what he does?

Tell me one more time just so I'll understand. I don't think they should do it this a way.

Excellent Waylon Jennings reference. I recommend Kriv/Mac use another Waylon song: This time, will be the last time.

[camisadelgolf]

I understand the frustrations with the Mike Stanton signing, but you have to put it in perspective. They were 58 free agent pitchers signed this off-season, and 22 of them were paid more than Stanton, so it's not really fair to expect the same out of him as those players. Of the 36 guys earning the same as or less than Stanton, Stanton is doing about equal to or better than, believe it or not, two-thirds of them. It's just a horrible, horrible market, and the Reds had almost nothing to work with thanks to the previous regimes.

[KronoRed]

Sure, but why a 3 year deal for a pitcher that old?

[RedsManRick]

I'm not a big fan of the "well, everybody else did something stupid, so therefore we should be excused" line. There will be 21 out of the other 29 teams sitting home in October. Let's not use them as our comps. We need to be better than 80% of baseball if we're gonna have a shot at winning anything.

Stanton is fine if you can afford paying millions for a marginal upgrade in middle relief over innings that might otherwise go to a 6.50+ ERA AAA veteran type guy. Stanton is a better option than say, Mike Burns, if you have a few million bucks to spend this year and next on a prettier mop up guy.

The conventional wisdom of lefties pitching forever is based on the premise that they continue to be able to get out other lefties. Unfortunately, Stanton isn't a LOOGY. He's just an old, left handed middle reliever who strikes out too few and gives up lots of hits. Just a poor decision from the get-go.

[camisadelgolf]

Originally Posted by KronoRed

Sure, but why a 3 year deal for a pitcher that old?

Just in case it makes a difference, it's two years plus a club option for the third (unless he makes 140 appearances--in which case, the third year is guaranteed).

By the way, his past two outings have skewed everything quite a bit. Less than a week ago, and I know it's not saying much, he was doing better than Todd Coffey, Gary Majewski, Kirk Saarloos, Victor Santos, Eddie Guardado, Marcus McBeth, Rheal Cormier, Ricky Stone, Matt Belisle, Bobby Livingston, Homer Bailey, Eric Milton . . .

My point is A.) good pitchers don't grow on trees, and B.) Mike Stanton's not the problem.

Is he over-paid by a million or two? Sure. Was signing him to a multi-year contract a bad idea? Probably. Is a million dollars or two going to make a difference this season or next season? No way. Like I said, if the Reds signed anyone for what Mike Stanton is making, he would most likely be doing just as poorly or worse.

Here are the 26 players who were available for $2M (Stanton's 2007 salary) or less in 2007:

1 yr $   380,000 Antonio Alfonseca	decent ERA, but peripheral numbers are terrible and is usually asked to pitch to only one or two hitters per game
2 yr $ 4,000,000 John Bale		has pitched only 14.1 innings
minor league     Brandon Claussen	is struggling in AAA
1 yr $   430,000 Scott Dohmann		has pitched only 13 innings
minor league     Willie Eyre		is performing below average
1 yr $ 1,650,000 Aaron Fultz		is performing well in 25.2 innings as LOOGY
minor league     Runelvys Hernandez	is doing horribly
3 yr $ 1,920,000 Yoslan Herrera		is underwhelming in AA
minor league     Dan Kolb		has pitched 3 innings
1 yr $   500,000 Brian Lawrence		has pitched 16 innings
minor league     Brian Moehler		is performing below average in mop-up role
1 yr $ 1,500,000 Tomo Ohka		is performing poorly
1 yr $ 1,750,000 Darren Oliver		is performing capably
1 yr $   380,000 Russ Ortiz		is performing below average
minor league     Arthur Rhodes		hasn't pitched
1 yr $ 1,600,000 J.C. Romero		is performing well as a LOOGY
minor league     Scott Sauerbeck	hasn't pitched
minor league     Aaron Sele		is performing below average
1 yr $ 1,750,000 Russ Springer		is performing well
1 yr $   750,000 Tanyon Sturtze		hasn't pitched
1 yr $ 1,000,000 Claudio Vargas		is performing below average
minor league     Rick White		is performing disastrously
1 yr $   500,000 Jerome Williams	is performing disastrously
1 yr $   900,000 Scott Williamson	has pitched 14.1 innings
minor league     Mike Wood		is performing average
minor league     Victor Zambrano	is performing disastrously

Mike Stanton is having the worst year of his career in pretty much every way. You can blame it on his age (although I don't see why he would change so much between the ages of 39 and 40), but I think it mostly comes from how he has been used this year.

[flyer85]

PECOTA thought Stanton was going to be bad(and he has been), no reason to blow a wad of cash for what stood a good chance of being below replacement level performance ... course I doubt the Reds know anything about that.

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by camisadelgolf

Is he over-paid by a million or two? Sure. Was signing him to a multi-year contract a bad idea? Probably. Is a million dollars or two going to make a difference this season or next season? No way. Like I said, if the Reds signed anyone for what Mike Stanton is making, he would most likely be doing just as poorly or worse.

And there's the rub. If all you expect out of a bullpen guy is an ERA in the high 4s or worse and some innings being eaten, don't spend your money on that in FA. Every team has somebody at AA or AAA who can come up and provide innings. If you don't have that guy, you probably aren't in contention anyways. We've got Brad Salmon wasting away so that we can fund Mike Stanton's retirement.

Sure, it's only a few million on Stanton, but it's also a few milliion on Cormier, a few million on Conine, a million on Juan Castro etc. and suddenly you've spent a superstar's worth on guys who you could have replaced in house if you had the guts to do so. If your table shows us anything, it's that crop of mediocre FA talent simply isn't worth the risk for the very limited upside they provide.

Free agency is for impact players you can't obtain otherwise and replaceable bit pieces that you can acquire at virtually no cost. That middle ground is where the market is the most inefficient and the easiest way to waste your money.

[flyer85]

the key to success through innovation starts by asking Peter Drucker’s naive question of “if we weren’t already doing things this way, is this the way we would start?” If the organization is ready and willing to embrace change that organization can exploit inefficiencies in the market.