Managerial search over. It's Dusty. - Page 12 - RedsZone.com - Cincinnati Reds Fans' Home for Baseball Discussion

M2 · 10-12-2007, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reds Nd2

Yep, but neither Mark Grudzielaneck, nor Eric Karros were that great a shake for the Cubs either. Do you really want to trust Dusty Baker's hand when it comes to Votto, Encarnacion, Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, etc.?

No, like I said, he wouldn't be my choice. Of course, I'd question how many of those kids will actually play for the Reds if Dusty is the manager. Expect the youth movement to be minimized if he's at the helm. His arrival would portend an entirely different gameplan for this organization. It would be all about winning now.

I've been saying for years that this franchise needs to make a serious commitment in a single direction - load up or rebuild. If the club hires Baker then it would seem that load up is the choice.

MartyFan · 10-12-2007, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heath

There have been worse managers in Cincinnati history and a lot of us around here worry more about the "Cincinnati" on the chest, than the guy who signs the lineup card. Maybe he'll channel his inner Pat Moran or Bill McKechnie.

I feel for the older Reds fan who jeered this guy while wearing Dodger Blue in the '70's. Now they'll have to like him.

Yes, us old timers will have to put to rest our intense hatred...rivalries were not the same back then as they are now...even though I hated the dodgers with every fiber of my being, I was always excited to see their players in reserve roles on the A.S. team.

Steve Garvey had a huge fan following in the region during that time as did Yeager and even Ron Cey.

Finally, I think if Reds Fans can allow Lou Pinella into our hearts, Dusty Baker has a shot as well.

KronoRed · 10-12-2007, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cedric

Billy Beane isn't a winner? Bobby Cox is just BARELY a winner?

Dusty has won at two different places.

Actually his record in Chicago was under .500, so it's just one place, if the definition is an above .500 record.

Also Beane is a GM not a manager, and I'm not that huge a fan of his..sorry

I just hope the Reds don't pay very much for Baker

Outshined_One · 10-12-2007, 03:00 AM

Speaking as a Cubs fan, you want absolutely no part of Dusty Baker as a manager. If he gets the job, here's what you can expect...

-First and foremost, he runs an incredibly veteran-friendly clubhouse. Some people think he's good for team chemistry. He lets the veterans go about their business and do what they want. Some guys naturally police and lead, while others go about their business.

Here's the problem, though. There's no accountability among veterans. Guys would lash out at the media and fans whenever the team was struggling, blaming them for whatever was ailing the team. Moises Alou and Kent Mercker reportedly once called the WGN TV booth during a broadcast and ripped Steve Stone and Chip Caray for pointing out problems with the team. Certain players and Dusty himself would come out and claim that race was behind a number of criticisms.

It's one thing when a team is defending itself against unwarranted criticism. It's another thing when there's no accountability. Speaking of which...

-Prepare for the excuses. Some personal favorites...

"We could have contended if we didn't have certain guys injured."
"Sometimes you have to tip your cap to the opposing team."
"If we had gotten a few lucky bounces, the game would have turned out differently."

You won't hear Dusty criticize his veterans in public. He won't call them out. He won't bench them unless faced with enormous pressure.

-Conversely, rookies and young players will be buried. Unless a guy is clearly head and heels above everyone else, Dusty will almost always favor the veteran. He seemed to do this particularly with position players, but he occasionally did it to pitchers. I can run off a list of scrubs Dusty would trot out in favor of promising rookies day after day. Moreover, these guys will be publicly called out and ripped. Corey Patterson had it pretty hard for baserunning blunders while Moises Alou would get off scot-free.

-Moreover, there will be inexplicable lineup moves. If you have terrible veteran bench players, Dusty will find a way to use them and use them often. He will hit them at the top of the order. Off the top of my head, Dusty has given significant playing time to such luminaries as Neifi Perez, Jose Macias, Lenny Harris, Damian Jackson, Tom Goodwin, Jose Hernandez, Rey Ordonez, Enrique Wilson, John Mabry, and Tony Womack. There are others, but these are the worst of the bunch. None of these players at the points they were at in their careers should have been starting, much less leading off. I mean...there are some metrics which claim Neifi Perez is the worst everyday hitter of this generation. Yet..."Neifi saved us!" was an infamous Dustyism from 2004 when Nomar went down, Neifi filled in for him, and the Cubs still missed the playoffs. I might never understand Dusty's love for Neifi.

-On the baseball field, prepare yourself for some incredibly aggressive hitting. If you hate walks, you'll love Dusty Baker. "It's called hitting, not walking," is another infamous Dustyism.

-Also, prepare yourself for more strikeouts and swinging at terrible pitches. There will be times where you will bash your head against the wall because certain hitters will make the same mistakes over and over and over again without correcting it (pulling outside pitches, swinging at face-high fastballs, whatever). Junkball lefties will make you want to jump off a tall building whenever you face them.

-Dusty will irrationally play traditional matchups. Mike Remlinger, a lefty who could only get right handed hitters out, was used as a LOOGY. Remember when Mr. Burns pulled Darryl Strawberry in favor of Homer Simpson in the softball episode of The Simpsons to play the matchup despite the fact that Strawberry hit a ton of HRs that day? There will be PH moves that will remind you of that.

-On a final note, Dusty is one of the absolute managers of pitchers I have ever seen in my life. I don't care what your opinion is on either of them, but I will go to my grave convinced that Dusty Baker was the one who ruined the arms of Mark Prior and Kerry Wood due to horrific overuse and an absolutely stubborn refusal to change any problems they had with their mechanics. I'm dead serious when I say you should be concerned for Homer Bailey and any other young pitcher if Dusty signs on.

Whatever your opinion of pitch counts may be, you have to at least acknowledge there is a such thing as abusing pitchers. Bringing a guy back early from taking a line drive off his arm and having him pitch extended outings would qualify. Having your star pitcher pitch in a game the day before he is to have shoulder surgery would qualify.

It's not just the starters, either. Does Robb Nen ring any bells? The same guy who was clearly injured and had lost his stuff during the Giants' WS run, but kept on being trotted out there, day after day, only to have his career end because of that abuse? How about Chad Fox, who was put on the shelf for good because Dusty, despite knowing Fox was an injury waiting to happen, decided to pitch Fox on back to back days, including a 25 pitch third of an inning which resulted in Fox's career-ending injury?

Dusty Baker was a horrible, horrible, horrible manager. Stay away at all costs.

Ron Madden · 10-12-2007, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy Tucker

If all the rumors are true, I can't say I'm too keen on Dusty being the new manager, but I'm not going to slit my wrists or anything.

Come spring, he'll be our guy and let's hope he can find some good mojo somewhere. Not that anyone cares, but he'll get a fair shake from me. It's either that or whine for months on end.

That pretty well sums up my feelings Roy.

When we come right down to it, there isn't a whole lot of difference between Narron, Baker, Brenley, LaRussa or Tracey.

To even be consiidered as a candidate to Manage a MLB Club
you must be a student of the "Old School". A MLB Manager should be able to turn a deaf ear to New Ideas and give'em the cold shoulder.

First and foremost you must always manage by "The BOOK".

Ron Madden · 10-12-2007, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyFan

Yes, us old timers will have to put to rest our intense hatred...rivalries were not the same back then as they are now...even though I hated the dodgers with every fiber of my being, I was always excited to see their players in reserve roles on the A.S. team.

Steve Garvey had a huge fan following in the region during that time as did Yeager and even Ron Cey.

Finally, I think if Reds Fans can allow Lou Pinella into our hearts, Dusty Baker has a shot as well.

I hated the Dodgers. (still do) I never met a Reds Fan who even liked Garvey,Yeager or Ron Cey.

redsmetz · 10-12-2007, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M2

No, like I said, he wouldn't be my choice. Of course, I'd question how many of those kids will actually play for the Reds if Dusty is the manager. Expect the youth movement to be minimized if he's at the helm. His arrival would portend an entirely different gameplan for this organization. It would be all about winning now.

I've been saying for years that this franchise needs to make a serious commitment in a single direction - load up or rebuild. If the club hires Baker then it would seem that load up is the choice.

I'm not sure I'm buying that. I just spent a little bit of time looking at the Giants rosters through Baker's years there. There were young players who came up with him and did alright. Aurelia, Bill Mueller, Shawn Estes, Russ Ortiz to name a few.

Even the players we consider aged, weren't all that old when they played for him (still in their late 20's, early 30's) - e.g. Barry Bonds.

I remember when Baker left the Giants and went to the Cubs, he was considered a decent manager. I'm not going to do handstands over Baker, but everyone's been clamoring for a "big name" and he meets that criterion. They'll still be my team. I'll hope for the best. I just think folks are freaking out way too much - it's just a game.

jojo · 10-12-2007, 06:09 AM

Personally, I don't care about big names. I'd truthfully like to see how it would be to go one season without even knowing the name of the guy managing my favorite teams....

redsmetz · 10-12-2007, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jojo

Personally, I don't care about big names. I'd truthfully like to see how it would be to go one season without even knowing the name of the guy managing my favorite teams....

Well I was fine after a month or so that Pete Mackanin would be just fine. Maybe the Reds are using Fay as a tool to make Mackanin more palatable. I've not been enamored of the big name notion. It's interesting that the four managers remaining in the playoffs; two are in their first gig, the other two are just in their second.

RedsBaron · 10-12-2007, 06:46 AM

I could not care less whether or not the Reds get a "big name" manager. I do care about the Reds getting a good manager. Dusty Baker is a "big name" manager, but he is not a good manager.
The Cincinnati Reds are giving the appearance of being the most brain dead organization in professional sports.

Ltlabner · 10-12-2007, 07:19 AM

So is RZ saying no to Dusty? Wasn't getting a real clear read on it.....

Kc61 · 10-12-2007, 08:02 AM

These reports of Baker being hired are just speculation. The Reds may well be conducting interviews down in Sarasota and all we know is that Baker was in that process.

I have heard Cub fans criticize his managing and the posts on this thread would concern any Reds fan.

I'm not very concerned about his field managing tendencies. The Reds have been so far away from true contention in recent years that lineup construction, even pitching moves, are secondary.

There is only one question for me -- will the new manager know talent and be strong enough to insist on it. Will he go to Krivsky and tell him that pitcher x won't cut it and can't be on the team, contract or no contract. Will he tell Krivsky that he can't win without x new hard throwing relievers. Will he tell Krivsky that player x is not important and the team is best off moving him for pitching or a less expensive alternative.

Believe me, I'd rather see Joe Torre or the next Sparky Anderson, guys who have it all. But right now, I'm less concerned with in-game strategy or even clubhouse manner. I want somebody who will insist on a higher talent level.

lollipopcurve · 10-12-2007, 08:26 AM

It's surprising that a guy with the track record Baker has -- multiple trips to the postseason, a trip to the Series, a few manager of the year awards, a winning % well over .500 -- could be so easily dismissed as a terrible manager. Sure, he made some mistakes and closed his time with the Cubs on a bad note. But look at all the numbers, folks. This guy has been a winner more often than not.

And he doesn't impress me as the kind of guy who would come off the left coast for suffering Cincinnati in order to rest on his laurels. I think this is a manager with something to prove, and, assuming he's coming here, he's willing to take on a challenge in order to prove it. I like the way that sets up. My concern is whether he'd have the patience to let the excellent young players develop -- I'd hope Krivsky could impress on him the importance of that....

Bottom line -- you have to respect the kind of success Baker has had.

Strikes Out Looking · 10-12-2007, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

It's surprising that a guy with the track record Baker has -- multiple trips to the postseason, a trip to the Series, a few manager of the year awards, a winning % well over .500 -- could be so easily dismissed as a terrible manager. Sure, he made some mistakes and closed his time with the Cubs on a bad note. But look at all the numbers, folks. This guy has been a winner more often than not.

And he doesn't impress me as the kind of guy who would come off the left coast for suffering Cincinnati in order to rest on his laurels. I think this is a manager with something to prove, and, assuming he's coming here, he's willing to take on a challenge in order to prove it. I like the way that sets up. My concern is whether he'd have the patience to let the excellent young players develop -- I'd hope Krivsky could impress on him the importance of that....

Bottom line -- you have to respect the kind of success Baker has had.

I think he's being dismissed as a terrible manager for this team that the Reds are trying to become. The Reds are trying to build a team with a solid pitching staff with young arms. Based on Baker's past record with young arms, many, including me, do not think he is a good fit, unless you have stock in Kremchek's practice.

bucksfan2 · 10-12-2007, 08:34 AM

To be honest I am not too keen of Baker being the reds manager but.....
-He was considered one of the best when the Cubs signed him after the Giants let him go for salary reasons
-He didn't wreck the arm of Wood. Has anyone seen his delivery motion along with his reliance on the slider. Baker wrecked Wood's arm just as McKeon wrecked Williamson's arm.
-I see WK as a GM similar to Epstein in saying when enough is enough for the pitchers.
-Do we really want to bring back another interm manager? At least hearing of a managerial serach is refreshing to me.
-Has anyone watched any of the playoffs with Chip Carey announcing. He is brutally bad.

10-12-2007, 03:00 AM	#169
Outshined_One One Man Army Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 440	Re: Managerial search update(s) Could it be Dusty? Speaking as a Cubs fan, you want absolutely no part of Dusty Baker as a manager. If he gets the job, here's what you can expect... -First and foremost, he runs an incredibly veteran-friendly clubhouse. Some people think he's good for team chemistry. He lets the veterans go about their business and do what they want. Some guys naturally police and lead, while others go about their business. Here's the problem, though. There's no accountability among veterans. Guys would lash out at the media and fans whenever the team was struggling, blaming them for whatever was ailing the team. Moises Alou and Kent Mercker reportedly once called the WGN TV booth during a broadcast and ripped Steve Stone and Chip Caray for pointing out problems with the team. Certain players and Dusty himself would come out and claim that race was behind a number of criticisms. It's one thing when a team is defending itself against unwarranted criticism. It's another thing when there's no accountability. Speaking of which... -Prepare for the excuses. Some personal favorites... "We could have contended if we didn't have certain guys injured." "Sometimes you have to tip your cap to the opposing team." "If we had gotten a few lucky bounces, the game would have turned out differently." You won't hear Dusty criticize his veterans in public. He won't call them out. He won't bench them unless faced with enormous pressure. -Conversely, rookies and young players will be buried. Unless a guy is clearly head and heels above everyone else, Dusty will almost always favor the veteran. He seemed to do this particularly with position players, but he occasionally did it to pitchers. I can run off a list of scrubs Dusty would trot out in favor of promising rookies day after day. Moreover, these guys will be publicly called out and ripped. Corey Patterson had it pretty hard for baserunning blunders while Moises Alou would get off scot-free. -Moreover, there will be inexplicable lineup moves. If you have terrible veteran bench players, Dusty will find a way to use them and use them often. He will hit them at the top of the order. Off the top of my head, Dusty has given significant playing time to such luminaries as Neifi Perez, Jose Macias, Lenny Harris, Damian Jackson, Tom Goodwin, Jose Hernandez, Rey Ordonez, Enrique Wilson, John Mabry, and Tony Womack. There are others, but these are the worst of the bunch. None of these players at the points they were at in their careers should have been starting, much less leading off. I mean...there are some metrics which claim Neifi Perez is the worst everyday hitter of this generation. Yet..."Neifi saved us!" was an infamous Dustyism from 2004 when Nomar went down, Neifi filled in for him, and the Cubs still missed the playoffs. I might never understand Dusty's love for Neifi. -On the baseball field, prepare yourself for some incredibly aggressive hitting. If you hate walks, you'll love Dusty Baker. "It's called hitting, not walking," is another infamous Dustyism. -Also, prepare yourself for more strikeouts and swinging at terrible pitches. There will be times where you will bash your head against the wall because certain hitters will make the same mistakes over and over and over again without correcting it (pulling outside pitches, swinging at face-high fastballs, whatever). Junkball lefties will make you want to jump off a tall building whenever you face them. -Dusty will irrationally play traditional matchups. Mike Remlinger, a lefty who could only get right handed hitters out, was used as a LOOGY. Remember when Mr. Burns pulled Darryl Strawberry in favor of Homer Simpson in the softball episode of The Simpsons to play the matchup despite the fact that Strawberry hit a ton of HRs that day? There will be PH moves that will remind you of that. -On a final note, Dusty is one of the absolute managers of pitchers I have ever seen in my life. I don't care what your opinion is on either of them, but I will go to my grave convinced that Dusty Baker was the one who ruined the arms of Mark Prior and Kerry Wood due to horrific overuse and an absolutely stubborn refusal to change any problems they had with their mechanics. I'm dead serious when I say you should be concerned for Homer Bailey and any other young pitcher if Dusty signs on. Whatever your opinion of pitch counts may be, you have to at least acknowledge there is a such thing as abusing pitchers. Bringing a guy back early from taking a line drive off his arm and having him pitch extended outings would qualify. Having your star pitcher pitch in a game the day before he is to have shoulder surgery would qualify. It's not just the starters, either. Does Robb Nen ring any bells? The same guy who was clearly injured and had lost his stuff during the Giants' WS run, but kept on being trotted out there, day after day, only to have his career end because of that abuse? How about Chad Fox, who was put on the shelf for good because Dusty, despite knowing Fox was an injury waiting to happen, decided to pitch Fox on back to back days, including a 25 pitch third of an inning which resulted in Fox's career-ending injury? Dusty Baker was a horrible, horrible, horrible manager. Stay away at all costs.

10-12-2007, 06:09 AM	#173
jojo Five Tool Fool Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 16,575	Re: Managerial search update(s) Could it be Dusty? Personally, I don't care about big names. I'd truthfully like to see how it would be to go one season without even knowing the name of the guy managing my favorite teams.... __________________ "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

10-12-2007, 06:46 AM	#175
RedsBaron Big Red Machine Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Out Wayne Posts: 22,383	Re: Managerial search update(s) Could it be Dusty? I could not care less whether or not the Reds get a "big name" manager. I do care about the Reds getting a good manager. Dusty Baker is a "big name" manager, but he is not a good manager. The Cincinnati Reds are giving the appearance of being the most brain dead organization in professional sports. __________________ "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

10-12-2007, 07:19 AM	#176
Ltlabner 2009: Fail Join Date: May 2006 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 7,441	Re: Managerial search update(s) Could it be Dusty? So is RZ saying no to Dusty? Wasn't getting a real clear read on it..... __________________ a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude. I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

10-12-2007, 08:02 AM	#177
Kc61 Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 10,847	Re: Managerial search update(s) Could it be Dusty? These reports of Baker being hired are just speculation. The Reds may well be conducting interviews down in Sarasota and all we know is that Baker was in that process. I have heard Cub fans criticize his managing and the posts on this thread would concern any Reds fan. I'm not very concerned about his field managing tendencies. The Reds have been so far away from true contention in recent years that lineup construction, even pitching moves, are secondary. There is only one question for me -- will the new manager know talent and be strong enough to insist on it. Will he go to Krivsky and tell him that pitcher x won't cut it and can't be on the team, contract or no contract. Will he tell Krivsky that he can't win without x new hard throwing relievers. Will he tell Krivsky that player x is not important and the team is best off moving him for pitching or a less expensive alternative. Believe me, I'd rather see Joe Torre or the next Sparky Anderson, guys who have it all. But right now, I'm less concerned with in-game strategy or even clubhouse manner. I want somebody who will insist on a higher talent level.

10-12-2007, 08:26 AM	#178
lollipopcurve Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Shelburne Falls, MA Posts: 9,485	Re: Managerial search update(s) Could it be Dusty? It's surprising that a guy with the track record Baker has -- multiple trips to the postseason, a trip to the Series, a few manager of the year awards, a winning % well over .500 -- could be so easily dismissed as a terrible manager. Sure, he made some mistakes and closed his time with the Cubs on a bad note. But look at all the numbers, folks. This guy has been a winner more often than not. And he doesn't impress me as the kind of guy who would come off the left coast for suffering Cincinnati in order to rest on his laurels. I think this is a manager with something to prove, and, assuming he's coming here, he's willing to take on a challenge in order to prove it. I like the way that sets up. My concern is whether he'd have the patience to let the excellent young players develop -- I'd hope Krivsky could impress on him the importance of that.... Bottom line -- you have to respect the kind of success Baker has had. __________________ "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

10-12-2007, 08:34 AM	#180
bucksfan2 Waitin til next year Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 9,620	Re: Managerial search update(s) Could it be Dusty? To be honest I am not too keen of Baker being the reds manager but..... -He was considered one of the best when the Cubs signed him after the Giants let him go for salary reasons -He didn't wreck the arm of Wood. Has anyone seen his delivery motion along with his reliance on the slider. Baker wrecked Wood's arm just as McKeon wrecked Williamson's arm. -I see WK as a GM similar to Epstein in saying when enough is enough for the pitchers. -Do we really want to bring back another interm manager? At least hearing of a managerial serach is refreshing to me. -Has anyone watched any of the playoffs with Chip Carey announcing. He is brutally bad.

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